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Thread: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

  1. #51
    Border Desperado Vector's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Let me start with your last post first.

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
    I suggest you look at the treatment you have received here and ask yourself if you feel bullied. Willie is a sweet person who doesn't enjoy heated debate, so when several members vehemently disagreed with her, she decided not to continue arguing. However, she has not been bullied. She wouldn't put up with that either (would you Willie? )
    I never said or implied I was bullied on this site. I merely pointed out how I will not allow myself to be bullied or shouted down.
    On the contrary, my treatment here has been great, and the discussion I've invited has been civil and thoughtful. Even if someone gets passionate about disagreeing with me, I would not consider it inappropriate nor bullying.


    Remember that Glenn Frey was the one who recommended Johns in the first place; he understood that the man knew what he was talking about. However, he didn't like not having creative control, and he wasn't the only one. Johns didn't want to mic the drums for Henley either, and Randy also chafed at the "no drugs" policy. Only Bernie, I believe, has voiced no complaints against Johns, but even he was ready to leave after the failure of Desperado.

    I see no disagreement with that at all. I would only mention what I am sure you will recall from the Doc, where the Frey/Johns relationship was described as oil & water.

    I think the guys were willing to take out what Johns dished at first precisely because of the reason you mentioned for the first album; plus, they were insecure then.

    Agreed

    However, again, I must remind you that Desperado was NOT a smash. It was a commercial failure. I think that's what gave the band the courage to leave Johns in spite of his pedigree.

    What I meant was that it became a smash, not that it was immediate.

    They did not leave Johns until AFTER the sales figures for Desperado came in.
    If Johns felt vindicated, it wouldn't be through the failed Desperado but for "Best of My Love." It was the last song they recorded with Johns and it appeared on On the Border. Unlike Desperado, it WAS a smash hit. I'm sure he took pleasure in that.

    Personally I believe he took pride in both. He alluded to it as well.

    I did not mention/cover it, but as to them not leaving John's until sales figures came in, I'm not really sure that was their main motivation. As you correctly point out, other issues such as the drum mic's, no drugs, being on time, etc. were a source of contention for everyone involved. The On The Border album that was co-produced by John's and Szymczk(sp?) was still much more country than rock, so my comment also alludes to him(at least at the time) believing they were more of a country/harmony band.

    You may wish to believe that Bernie was expressing band sentiments and not his own with his statement "Glyn Johns missed it"; you may wish to believe that he secretly wanted to remain with Johns. However, as he didn't say so in the documentary or in any other interview that I'm aware of, I think that belief is difficult to support.

    It is not so much what I wish to think, as it has no bearing on me whatsoever. Bernie was country, and John's felt that was their wheelhouse. So it stands to reason L-eadon would not be as compelled to leave as Frey who wanted a harder edge. As to the comment, I said I was not sure, and needed to go back and see if L-eadon was referring to himself making the comment, or if it was the overall bands feeling.

    There was no confrontation with Johns; indeed, by then, Johns seems to have tired of the Eagles. Therefore, I really don't see Glenn acting so terribly here. You have some good points in other segments of your argument, but I think holding the leaving of Johns against Glenn is a stretch.

    I did not mean to imply there was a physical confrontation, as John's was a much older guy by then. Rather as above, I am referring to Frey and him being so much at odds that they were referred to as oil & water. John's undoubtedly got tired of them as the conversation between Bill S and John's indicated in the Doc, "better you than me mate".

    Still I will concede it was not Frey alone who caused the switch.


    As webmistress of a network of Eagles sites, I too have read, summarized, and cataloged an entire database of articles - including the ones you mentioned - that I was forced to later take down because of a copyright troll. Despite that, I have no recollection of such a statement. Now, perhaps I've just forgotten it - that's not impossible - but I'm afraid without a citation, I'm not ready to just accept such a condemnation without proof. I think it is probable that you are remembering wrong - such as your mistaken assertion that Desperado was a "smash hit."

    The term "smash" I already spoke to above. As to a copyright troll, that is a loss to everyone.

    If this point about the main person being Frey who authorised Azoff to file the lawsuit is important to you, I will re-read/view some of the material hoping to catch it among the other info.

    I will have to finish my post later as somehow it posted mid-reply, and I need to do something else at the moment.

    `

  2. #52
    Stuck on the Border TimothyBFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Just as I started this post, Tequila Sunrise came on Sirius The Bridge. Pretty cool!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector View Post
    I have not lost my appreciation for the bands music that I always enjoyed. I suspect however that their newer material might be less likely to catch on with me. My overall perception of them has changed, and not for the better in many cases as we will see.
    Exactly!!! Even tho I got a real eye opener about Glenn Frey's behavior and personality, it would never deter me from listening and loving this music. And that goes for Eagles or Glenn's solo stuff. I love it, have always loved it and will always love it. If I let every bad thing I've ever read or seen about an artist dictate how I feel about their music, I'd not be listening to much music. And I can't imagine my life without my Zeppelin, Doors, Eagles, etc... music.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vector
    It is funny that you would mention the drug use, as that is something that bothered me as well. Despite coming of age in the 80's, I never did a single drug in my life. This despite me looking like I did with longer hair very similar to Frey's & Meisner's. My father would always say after I got back from a haircut, "which one of them did you have cut".
    Quote Originally Posted by Vector
    Having said that, in those days I really didn't care who was doing what drug because I was not aware of all the negative aspects it had on others, and society as a whole. I left it out of my OP since I was already mentioning a bunch of other disturbing revelations about the band, but it is another thing I find not to like about them.
    Let me first say I have never taken a drug in my life, never had the desire to try them. Was around them a LOT in my younger days but just didn't get it. I did, however, do my fair share of drinking and have been completely sober for 17 years now.

    BUT, even tho I felt this way about drugs, I could care less what or who is doing drugs in the music business. Never cared one way or the other. If I like the music, I like the music. If they wanted to get coked up and perform, don't care--- that is, as long as it didn't make a difference in the performance I might be paying to see. I may have been young when I first discovered the Eagles but I wasn't stupid. I knew what was going on (I had seen it enough with my older cousins). All I knew was they were putting out some amazing music and that's what I cared about. It's unfortunate that we've lost so many good artist to drugs but that was their life choice, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascout
    I suggest you look at the treatment you have received here and ask yourself if you feel bullied. Willie is a sweet person who doesn't enjoy heated debate, so when several members vehemently disagreed with her, she decided not to continue arguing. However, she has not been bullied. She wouldn't put up with that either (would you Willie? ), nor would I.
    "A sweet person". Thank you.

    No, I can honestly say, I never felt bullied by anyone that responded to my posts in the doc thread at any time. The main reason I finally just walked away from the discussion was that no matter what I posted about MY feelings about how I saw Glenn Frey in that documentary, I was told it wasn't the case, that I was seeing it wrong, that he wasn't as bad as I was perceiving it, etc.... That got tiresome very quickly.I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind about how they felt, was just stating my opinion. But felt as if I was being told I was just wrong in how I perceived it. I love the fact that we have members (myself included) that will fight to the death to defend the music of the Eagles but I do think that some members just can't admit that they will have the same faults as any other human and feel that it is, somehow, unfaithful to admit that Glenn came off as a not so nice guy in much of that documentary, and not just with the whole Don F thing. I will reiterate what I've said several times, it has nothing to do with defending Don F, which I've seen people say a few times. If I was the only one that thought so, I'd say I was wrong but I saw in so many blogs, articles, etc... that others were seeing him in the same light as I was.

    I was asked why it "shocked" me so much? I wasn't shocked---trust me, I've seen a lot of stuff in my life time that was a lot uglier than Glenn's behavior. I think what really "shocked" me was that there were those that thought his behavior was ok, made excuses for it and justified it as being ok. I dare say, that if they had had a boss ("leader") that acted that way toward them or a fellow co-worker, they would think it was out of line. And the fact that he seemed almost proud of the way he handled things. Yes, he admitted that some things could of been handled better but I didn't see much regret in the way he presented himself in the doc. (Example of regret was when Bernie talked about dumping the beer over Glenn--he didn't seem proud of that at all) I will maintain that Glenn Frey is the reason why Randy left, Bernie left and Don F left. In my opinion, if you want to talk bully, Glenn seemed to be it.BUT I will also say that I know he has treated several of our members here and many fans so respectfully and sweetly in encounters with him. I'm thankful for that because it does make me believe that he has that side but the business side of him can get pretty ugly. Sorry, I know I will offend a lot of people here, but I'm being honest in the way I feel.
    He sings it high, he plays it low

  3. #53
    Border Rebel Houston Debutante's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyBFan
    No, I can honestly say, I never felt bullied by anyone that responded to my posts in the doc thread at any time. The main reason I finally just walked away from the discussion was that no matter what I posted about MY feelings about how I saw Glenn Frey in that documentary, I was told it wasn't the case, that I was seeing it wrong, that he wasn't as bad as I was perceiving it, etc.... That got tiresome very quickly.I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind about how they felt, was just stating my opinion. But felt as if I was being told I was just wrong in how I perceived it.
    I go into discussions ~ especially controversial ones ~ prepared for the fact that not everyone will think I got the right impression, so it doesn't bother me. We're all different though and if it upsets you that everybody isn't telling you you're right, it's definitely best to bow out. Smart move.
    ~Sara


  4. #54
    Stuck on the Border TimothyBFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Quote Originally Posted by Houston Debutante View Post
    I go into discussions ~ especially controversial ones ~ prepared for the fact that not everyone will think I got the right impression, so it doesn't bother me. We're all different though and if it upsets you that everybody isn't telling you you're right, it's definitely best to bow out. Smart move.
    Maybe I worded that wrong? I never meant to give the impression that I wanted people to say "you're right--I change my mind". That's funny that you think that would upset me. Absolutely not,I don't upset that easy. --- I might be completely wrong and reading Glenn wrong. I even admitted that maybe I was reading more into it and that he might have been "acting" like he did when it actually happened, as someone suggested. It was more that I seemed to be offending people when I spoke of my disappointment in what I saw and how dare I say things negative about Glenn. To be fair, it wasn't like the whole freaking membership of The Border was doing that--of course not. In fact, I totally agree with several of these same members on so many other things we discuss. No hard feeling at all toward anyone and I hope the same with them. It just seemed that anything that is said that may be negative about Glenn and how he came across to some of us in the doc was jumped on and told that he isn't like that. How do any of us here actually know what kind of business man he is or how easy he would be to see on a day to day basis and work with? None of us have the opportunity to actually work with the man on that level. I said he's never gave the impression that he's anything but respectful and happy to be sociable to his fans when some of the members here have gotten the chance to meet him.

    That's the last of what I'm going to say on that because it's back to beating a dead horse again. Some people saw him as being one way and others saw him as being the other. I can live with that. No problem. And I won't tell anyone they are wrong in the way they feel about it. We just see things differently. That's what makes a good discussion if everyone can be civil about it.
    He sings it high, he plays it low

  5. #55
    Border Desperado Vector's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Just trying to find the time to finish responding to this reply and get to other previous ones. Thanks for the links to the articles you posted regarding the politics. I will read them later and see what impression they leave on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post


    I understand why Geffen perceived the lawsuit as ungrateful. However, the band - not just Glenn, as you stated in your OP - saw it differently. Holding the lawsuit against Glenn in particular seems to be another stretch to me. As far as I know none of the other Eagles has stated they didn't want to sue Geffen, and I daresay none of the Eagles refused to take back their share of the publishing rights once they were granted as a result of the lawsuit.
    If I am not mistaken, Frey & Henley were already pairing off and making decisions for the band business wise, much to the dismay and frustration of the others. I did not read or see anything that would indicate a strenuous objection on the part of a single member to the lawsuit. Yet to assume L-eadon, Meisner or Felder were the main ones behind the lawsuit would be a real stretch.
    If Frey was the defacto leader as most people claim, he cannot be credited with captaining the ship in a positive way, yet only be a regular member of a presumed democratic process during the more controversial decisions.

    You're entitled to your opinion; however, when I look at the fact that the Eagles are the most successful rock'n'roll band in the history of recorded music and are filling arenas with fans to this day, it seems reasonable to conclude that his leadership style was fairly effective in the end.

    There is no doubt Frey made great choices when helping to assemble the original group of guys. His decision to add Felder as a 5th member also served to create a more R&R sound, and collaborative artistry that brought them to the pinnacle of success.
    When L-eadon got fed up and left, Frey was instrumental in bringing in Walsh, which again added to the special mix which made them about as R&R as they were going to get.
    When Meisner was driven out, again he made a wonderful choice in Schmit who brought a soulful sound and added to their harmony. So just as he is getting criticism for being an antagonist, he also deserves much of the credit for assembling great talent.

    Yet, we will never know what great albums could have been produced with various original bands members driven to the point of quiting. We will also never know what new material they could have come up with had the Frey not called it quits for 14 years. One could argue that he was acting like a petulant child taking his ball home, and leaving everyone else standing around, not able to play.

    One wonders what would have happened if Henley/Felder as 2/3 or maybe even sole owners of Eagles Ltd. decided to carry on without him. Maybe after a rest, it might have forced Frey's hand to either keep the group going, or he would be left out of future Eagles projects.

    `

  6. #56
    Border Rebel Houston Debutante's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector
    One wonders what would have happened if Henley/Felder as 2/3 or maybe even sole owners of Eagles Ltd. decided to carry on without him. Maybe after a rest, it might have forced Frey's hand to either keep the group going, or he would be left out of future Eagles projects.

    If they had gone on without Glenn, I'll tell you what it would have been: Don Henley and his back-up band. That's not me saying that ~ Don said it himself according to Shapiro's book, but you can see how it would be true. Before HFO, Timothy had one Eagles song under his belt, Joe had two, and Felder had one. Let's say they do a new album and they each sing three songs on that. So basically it would be Don singing everything except a few songs, unless you include the new ones that no one cares about and a bunch more James Gang / solo stuff. Maybe Felder could've performed material off of Airborne. That sure would bring the house down.

    I'm a huge Don fan but that would not be an Eagles show. It would be a joke.

    Better for Don to continue with his hugely successful solo career than be part of something like that, and he knew it.

    You have a problem with Glenn breaking up the Eagles because it left others 'not able to play.' Well, they could play, they just couldn't make as much money. Still, if Glenn doesn't want to do it because he's unhappy, is he supposed to just show up out of pity for the other guys because they can't get anyone to buy their solo material ~ other than Don, of course? That's ridiculous.
    Last edited by Houston Debutante; 04-17-2013 at 12:47 PM.
    ~Sara


  7. #57
    Border Desperado Vector's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    I agree with your post, especially the part of still enjoying the music without it being tainted by the current revelations. Heck many an artist had personal issues/demons, yet you can still enjoy and separate their work from the rest. I did however want to comment on one thing you brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by AEW21 View Post
    As for the "Glenn was a bully" generalization
    Bully might not be the best word, yet you have to wonder why he acted the way he did. One can be a leader without using an iron fist.
    Using Frey's favorite analogy of quarterbacks for example, Joe Montana and Ken Stabler were both great leaders, yet kept everyone calm in the most stressful situations.
    Let's not forget that Frey nor the other guys are that big physically, despite looking larger than life to the fans while on stage.
    One wonders how Frey would have acted if the guys had not been his own size, but rather much more physically imposing. It is funny because one of the books describes them being surprised how in dealing with the labels, Azoff(who is a tiny guy) got away with his antics, and never got his face smashed in.

    I also remember in Felder's book when he described the beer incident, he said L-eadon poured the entire beer over Frey's head, all the while staring him down. L-eadon was in the best shape of any of them, and apparently knew karate, so Frey just sat and took it, rather than risk losing a fight.

    Anyway, Frey does have positive attributes, but he left a lot to be desired as the self described "team leader".


  8. #58
    Border Desperado Vector's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Quote Originally Posted by Henley Honey View Post
    I appreciate your POV, Vector. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    I am not trying to stir things up with you, but when people agree to disagree, it normally involves opinion, not fact.

    In the case of our discussion you contend that Glenn was the boss or as you waggishly put it, "Chief Eagle Officer".
    Yet that is not representative of the facts. He was one of 4 owners, eventually 5 owners, which he insisted upon.
    Now if all the other owners had no problem with him being the boss, we would not be discussing how two of the five quit, and one was improperly fired.

    If what RebeccaLovesEagles points out is entirely accurate how Eagles Ltd was structured, once a member quit, their shares revert back to the other owners. So at one point that would have made Felder a 1/3 owner, not an employee that was offered a "profit sharing plan".

    `

  9. #59
    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Vector - As I stated earlier, I was going to try stay out of this thread unless I felt facts were being misrepresented. Ohers are free to respond to you as they wish, but, as moderator of this thread, I am going to respond to several of your last posts. You are certainly free to express your opinion here, and it's nice that you have the time to respond to everyone in this thread, but, honestly, I don't have that kind of time. Therefore, I'll be brief for now. You say that Soda and Henley Honey don't have their facts straight, yet, your posts are riddled with misinformation and factual errors. I don't have time to make a fact-checking list right now, but I'll try to get to it when I have more time. But, as a brief example, in your last post, Glenn was not a self-appointed leader, he was, in fact, elected to the position by his fellow bandmates. So, that one piece of misinformation leads to flawed logic and conclusions in your posts. As I said earlier, there is some information about the band's finances in Felder's book and in the Heaven and Hell book thread that you may find helpful. If you are not trying to stir things up, then the best way to do that is to make sure that you have the facts straight. This is exactly the reason I think the more information you have, the better.
    Last edited by Ive always been a dreamer; 04-17-2013 at 04:23 PM.

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  10. #60
    Border Rebel Houston Debutante's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I no longer am happy with my favorite band

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector View Post
    I am not trying to stir things up with you, but when people agree to disagree, it normally involves opinion, not fact.
    In my experience it simply means the person doesn't want to bother arguing with you anymore.
    ~Sara


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