Celebration of "One of These Nights"!

[chaim]

Further to Funk 50's example above, I believe Black Sabbath (at least in the early days) always used to credit every song to all four members as they believed that nothing would be the same if one of them wasn't there. In reality it was usually guitarist Tony Iommi who came up with the music, and bassist Geezer Butler who came up with the lyrics.

Ozzy came up with vocal melodies, which are part of the "music". Take Paranoid, for example. IMO there are two memorable things musically - Tony's intro riff and Ozzy's syncopated verse melody.

Bill Ward, as far as I know, was the only one who didn't contribute to the actual composing and lyric writing.

[chaim]

When we've discussed credits elsewhere, I think it was said that the legal copyright of a song is just the lyrics and vocal melody and the rest is just the arrangement. Indeed, when you ask someone about a song, they will usually just sing the lyrics. Part 2 of the doc has a good example when a group of people are asked what they are looking forward to hearing and they sing the words "One of the nights...". No one sings the baseline and the song is quite recognisably without any of the instrumentation.

Further support to the idea that the OOTN bassline is just an arrangement comes from Felder's description. The bass was added to a song that had already been written. It changed the sound of the track but not the song.

However, it does seem that the band sometimes gives songwriting credits for the music (beyond vocal melody) or riffs and this seems to be when the song started with that music eg Witchy Woman, Hotel California, Victim of Love, Hotel California.

As I said the other day, I believe Felder wrote a lot of the lyrics of Visions as well as the music because it's more his style than Henley's.

I wonder what the copyright position is on instrumentals.

This post sums up how I understand it. I don't actually know how it goes officially, but all of this makes perfect sense and fits everything I've seen.

As for people being generous about songwriting credits...Sometimes people tend to give a credit for the tiniest thing and sometimes they wouldn't like to share the writing credit even if the other person wrote a huge part. Neil Young used a line by someone else ("It's better to burn out than it is to rust") in a song of his, and gave him a credit for that.

On the other hand, there are Beatles lyrics that were written with various people (including non-members) suggesting lines that were used. It has been said that the line about Father McKenzie darning his socks in "Eleanor Rigby" came from Ringo, for example. But, if I remember correctly, later McCartney was reluctant to admit even John contributing anything. The official credit, of course, in those days was "Lennon/McCartney". But I think it says "Lennon/McCartney/Starkey" on "What goes on", so it's not that the "Lennon/McCartney" credit was set in stone whoever contributed.

[thelastresort]

Ozzy came up with vocal melodies, which are part of the "music". Take Paranoid, for example. IMO there are two memorable things musically - Tony's intro riff and Ozzy's syncopated verse melody.

Bill Ward, as far as I know, was the only one who didn't contribute to the actual composing and lyric writing.

Indeed, Tony would usually pull out the riff and chord progressions and Ozzy would say things entirely spontaneously (and often nonsensical) to get a feel for the vocal, then usually him and Geezer would work through and create proper lyrics - I am tempted to believe however that Geezer played a huge part in Paranoid since Ozzy didn't actually know what paranoid meant In cases where the words came first and music second, I believe Geezer was usually the sole lyricist.

I think you could also argue to an extent Ward's drumming was an integral part of the music, ergo warranted his credits - look at the likes of Iron Man and War Pigs. His performance at Paris 1970 is still the best live drumming performance I've ever seen, he was going for it like a madman.

[chaim]

Indeed, Tony would usually pull out the riff and chord progressions and Ozzy would say things entirely spontaneously (and often nonsensical) to get a feel for the vocal, then usually him and Geezer would work through and create proper lyrics - I am tempted to believe however that Geezer played a huge part in Paranoid since Ozzy didn't actually know what paranoid meant In cases where the words came first and music second, I believe Geezer was usually the sole lyricist.

I think you could also argue to an extent Ward's drumming was an integral part of the music, ergo warranted his credits - look at the likes of Iron Man and War Pigs. His performance at Paris 1970 is still the best live drumming performance I've ever seen, he was going for it like a madman.

Yeah, it's true you could say that. But on the other hand you could also say that it's not part of the songwriting. Both views can be argued. But IMO you couldn't possibly argue that Ozzy's melodies are not part of the songwriting. Yet in rock'n'roll lots of people don't seem to think that vocal melodies are part of the "music". I've talked about this before. For some reason for many rock fans "music" is guitar riffs and chord progressions - not vocal melodies.

They did a Black Sabbath album on "Classic albums". Was it Paranoid? Anyway, they played some early versions with Ozzy's initial vocal ideas - before Geezer wrote the actual lyrics. The final lyrics weren't there, but the melodies were. Personally I was surprised when I saw that show. I had always thought that Ozzy didn't write even vocal melodies.

[NightMistBlue]

Yet in rock'n'roll lots of people don't seem to think that vocal melodies are part of the "music". I've talked about this before. For some reason for many rock fans "music" is guitar riffs and chord progressions - not vocal melodies.

They should try to write a good melody sometime - it's the most crucial part of the song, IMO. Sadly it seems to be a dying art.

I think that's why Glenn has become an educator on songwriting in recent years. He sees that it's gone into decline somewhat.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

In the discussion that UTW mentioned, there were various links to help support different interpretations of who gets credit. I can't search for it now, but I believe we ended the discussion with it possibly being different in each country (legally), and different with each group of songwriters. For instance there might be basic criteria of who gets credit, and some bands/songwriters may choose to expand it. For our guys, it seems to be whomever contributes to the chord progression, lyrics, and melody, and anything else is arrangement and harmonies. When you think about an artist doing a cover of a song, they may put their own spin on it, different arrangements, different keys, different intros, but they don't get partial writing credit for doing it.

[chaim]

They should try to write a good melody sometime - it's the most crucial part of the song, IMO. Sadly it seems to be a dying art.

I think that's why Glenn has become an educator on songwriting in recent years. He sees that it's gone into decline somewhat.

I've heard about this before. Are there any video clips or web sites in the internet about this?

[NightMistBlue]

I've heard about this before. Are there any video clips or web sites in the internet about this?

In the Glenn Frey section of this site, there is a thread about Glenn speaking at New York University - that's a really good discussion, with a lot of detail provided on what Glenn said (thanks again, ladies!). Here's a little article about it: http://www.pollstar.com/news_article.aspx?ID=803359

There is also an audio interview on a songwriting web site. You have to join the site, but it's free. I can't remember the name of the site but I'm sure it's mentioned in the NYU thread.

[chaim]

In the Glenn Frey section of this site, there is a thread about Glenn speaking at New York University - that's a really good discussion, with a lot of detail provided on what Glenn said (thanks again, ladies!). Here's a little article about it: http://www.pollstar.com/news_article.aspx?ID=803359

There is also an audio interview on a songwriting web site. You have to join the site, but it's free. I can't remember the name of the site but I'm sure it's mentioned in the NYU thread.

Thanks!!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Thanks!!

Try Art of the Song. I know accessing it through their Facebook page is something that can be done without joining, but paging back to the late spring/early summer of 2012 might be a bit much, but there's probably a link to their website and it can be searched on if the link isn't in the press and discussion about After Hours thread.

In the past few years, there have been tweets and references to Glenn teaching at NYU, a songwriting class. They are throughout Glenn's press thread. It's almost enough for me to want to take up an interest in songwriting, but alas, I think I'll stick with software since I've never been able to speak in rhyme.