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Thread: Songwriting Techniques

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying Twit View Post
    I've spent a lot of my life trying to write good songs. It doesn't happen for me naturally. Though, I haven't spent as long on any individual song as Jackson Browne does.

    That suggests that I have a bit of a frail grasp on the big picture of songwriting. I do believe that it's possible to learn things intellectually, but get to the point where it becomes internalised so that it can be used.

    Now that I've got oodles of Eagles sheet music, I'll be analysing more.

    BTW: I find that analysing songs often makes me appreciate them more. E.g. the bridge for BOML.
    That has happened to me often with classical music - especially music from the 20th century when it was sometimes rather...weird. Well, not as much analyzing as checking rhythmic stuff for example from the written score. Following the score sometimes helps me "get" a classical piece.

    As for "natural" or "unnatural" songwriting. There are classic songwriters who really work at it. Randy Newman and Leonard Cohen come to mind. Randy always says that for him it's a craft - things don't just pop into his head. For him it's not like "ooh, inspiration just struck me". He sits down at the piano and goes to work.

    By the way, I haven't thought enough about the melody when "analyzing" chord movements. Thanks to you I may be doing so in the future.
    Last edited by chaim; 06-03-2016 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #62
    Stuck on the Border Annoying Twit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    I'm generally looking for incidentals showing where there have been key changes. Sometimes I find them, sometimes I don't.

    I'm looking at the sheet music now. Analysis has not increased my appreciation of 'The Disco Strangler'. Unfortunately, it is still my least favourite Eagles song. Musically there's not much to it, with a riff in Dminor, then a few chords at the end of each section as the refrain plays. Repeat.

    The Last Resort is interesting. According to the music there's a big key change between the two parts of the song. It starts off in E major. The piano bit in the middle is G major, and when the verse returns it's in G major as well. I never noted that key change. TLR is also notable how it has a sad plaintative feel, but is all major chords, and mostly I - IV - V. The slow tempo helps, but it really shows how they can write sad songs using the most straightforward major key chord progression ever (maybe.) There is a non-diatonic note, the starting 'she' is an A# while the key is E major which has an A natural, but it doesn't sound unusual at all to my ear. The syncopation, not starting vocal lines at the start of the bar but delaying one eighth note or occasionally one sixtheenth note in helps, I think.

    Clicking on 'Frey' (accidentally) brought up a dictionary entry. 'Frey' is apparently the Scandinavian god of fertility and dispenser of rain and sunshine.

  3. #63
    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Freya is a Norse goddess, a very important one. I watch the show "Vikings" and she's mentioned often http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-...ddesses/freya/

    Chaim, you're from the Netherlands, aren't you?

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    The Last Resort has also a rather clever detail in the chords. Mostly the first part is E, A, B, E, but once the A is substituted with its relative minor. If I remember correctly it's beneath the words "just as her father came...". That II(7) chord only appears once in the song. Very effective. If I remember correctly they used a similar idea in Sad Cafe, where it's mostly B, Em7, F#, B, but once it's B, C#m7b5, F#, B.

    NightMistBlue...Close, Finland.

  5. #65
    Stuck on the Border Annoying Twit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    The sheet music for TLR doesn't have an A minor. There is A major in the verses and Amaj7, and A6 in the instrumental segments. This doesn't mean that the sheet music is right. (listens) There is definitely a change in the A chord there. Playing along, it might be the minor but I'm not sure. My ear isn't good enough.

    I wonder if that was a mistake, and they left it in because they liked it?
    Last edited by Annoying Twit; 06-03-2016 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #66
    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by chaim View Post
    NightMistBlue...Close, Finland.
    I knew it was someplace more exotic

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying Twit View Post
    The sheet music for TLR doesn't have an A minor. There is A major in the verses and Amaj7, and A6 in the instrumental segments. This doesn't mean that the sheet music is right. (listens) There is definitely a change in the A chord there. Playing along, it might be the minor but I'm not sure. My ear isn't good enough.

    I wonder if that was a mistake, and they left it in because they liked it?
    I deleted my post where I mentioned A minor. When you mentioned "TLR" I though you were talking about The Long Run. Then I realised that The Last Resort is "TLR" too and deleted my post.

  8. #68
    Stuck on the Border Annoying Twit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by chaim View Post
    I deleted my post where I mentioned A minor. When you mentioned "TLR" I though you were talking about The Long Run. Then I realised that The Last Resort is "TLR" too and deleted my post.
    I'm a bit confused. You mentioned lyrics from The Last Resort and there is a different chord there. I'm not sure it's minor, I'm thinking it could be an inversion of the major chord. (That shows my ear isn't wonderful). Playing along on guitar, an A minor chord fits and is interesting.

    One thing about discussing chord progressions is that it's very hard for something to be truly wrong. Even if there isn't a minor chord there, it's still interesting to discuss what would happen if there was.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying Twit View Post
    I'm a bit confused. You mentioned lyrics from The Last Resort and there is a different chord there. I'm not sure it's minor, I'm thinking it could be an inversion of the major chord. (That shows my ear isn't wonderful). Playing along on guitar, an A minor chord fits and is interesting.

    One thing about discussing chord progressions is that it's very hard for something to be truly wrong. Even if there isn't a minor chord there, it's still interesting to discuss what would happen if there was.
    What I mentioned about The Last Resort was the F sharp minor seventh chord that appears once ("Just as her father came"). It has the same function as the A major chord, but it appears only once. At 0:32 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG-XBz1tjIU

    A similar thing happens in the last verse in Take It Easy, where one of the C major chords is replaced with its relative minor, A minor.

    And, like I mentioned, in Sad Cafe the E minor (seventh) chord is replaced with a C#m7b5 once or twice. Here it appears for the first time at 1:48 mark ("lonely crowd"): https://vimeo.com/45249782
    It seems that Glenn was fond of that sort of thing. I assume that idea came from him, not Jackson Browne, in Take It Easy.
    Last edited by chaim; 06-04-2016 at 07:04 AM.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Peaceful Easy Feeling, despite being written by a non-Eagle (Jack Tempchin) seems to be typical of their songs.

    The chords are in the key of E major, with all chords being diatonic, and no key changes. Like a lot of Eagles songs, there's one thing that makes the chords interesting, and that's the use of quite a few sus4 chords. A lot of these follow the straight major. E.g. the introduction is E major to E sus4, then back to E major when the words start.

    The verse is a rocking back and forward between E (I - tonic) and A (IV). I think I've seen a number of Eagles songs that do this during the verse, though I can't remember which ones off the top of my head. Finally at the end of the first part of the verse (I think this is an extended verse like Take it Easy) we get to the V chord (B) which is followed by Bsus4 then B.

    The verse goes up to the note of B, and the second part of the complex verse goes up to the note of C for the refrain "Peaceful Easy Feeling", which also has long drawn out notes and harmonies as often in Eagles song. This bit still has the chords A and E, but they are reversed. A first then E. And on "let me down" we get the sole minor chord in the song, Fm7 (IIm7). Nothing unexpected, but holding off this time makes it sound novel when it finally arrives.

    The next verse is sung higher, so that the previous high notes of B in the verse and C for the refrain are finally exceeded, getting up to E at times. This variation introduces new interest into the later verses. That's interesting because the melody is mostly quite unadventurous in terms of notes, with most phrases (and emphasised - e.g. longer) notes being directly from the chords used in the harmony. Often fifths and thirds from the chords, some tonics. There is a Gnatural note in the singing of 'standin'' in 'already standin' on the ground' which is a flat 7, a common non-diatonic note, which isn't emphasised, so we don't really hear the bluesy effect it would often give.

    There is some variation in the phrasing and vocal rhythm. Quite a lot of held notes are syncopated, e.g. "soul" "go", even "feeling" start on the last and of the bar, which gives the melody a bit more sophistication given that the notes are mostly what we'd expect for a cowboy song. The same with the use of sus4 chords. Otherwise it'd be a cowboy song.

    BTW: I don't know if I should discuss songs here. I'm interested in talking about this but I don't know to the degree that others would like to discuss too many songs. Note also that I'm nowhere near guaranteed to do analysis like this completely correctly.

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