The great "Hotel California" debate.

[BBKron]

I've never heard of any association between these songs before, and the claim is pretty absurd. Yes, there is a similarity, but not that close.

However, there is another song that definitely did influence the Eagles development of Hotel California, and that is 'Two Hangmen', a 1969 protest song (which was also before Tull's 'similar'-sounding song) by Midwestern Country-Rock Band Mason Proffit. And the Eagles have readily admitted (or at least Frey has in interviews) that Mason Proffit was a big influence on the band, and that Hotel California was actually modeled after Two Hangmen.

I don't know how to embed videos (like others have), but here is a link to the youtube video (which is actually only audio) here:

http://youtu.be/bt2eF1IJtSE

An mp3 of the song is also available for free download at Mason Proffit's website (website link here). The song actually has an interesting history. If you've never heard the song before, it may be because just as the song was catching on nationally, it was banned by the FCC from radio play for being inflammatory.

So, no, of course the Eagles did not 'steal or 'plagarize' anything here. But 'Two Hangmen' was surely the musical inspiration for Hotel California, not this little-known Tull song.

[Topkat]

Well, I don't think that song sounds like Hotel California either. In fact it sounds less like it than the Tull song. If Frey says it influenced him, so be it, but I don't see the similarities in the words or the music.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Honestly, I don't see many similarities either. I can hear slight similarities in the chord sequences in both songs, but not enough to claim that either of these songs was the musical inspiration for Hotel California. I'm interested to hear from some of our musically inclined Borders about this. BBKron, I'm also very interested about what Glenn had to say about how they patterned Hotel California after this song. Can you post a link to the interview or give us a quote of his remarks. I can't recollect him commenting on this, so I'd love to hear/see what he had to say.

[WalshFan88]

I'm interested to hear from some of our musically inclined Borders about this.

As I said before, I think they are similar in the chord progression but it IS very hard to find a progression that is truly never been used. That's why there are so many songs out there that can sound alike. Hang On Sloopy and Twist and Shout for instance as some simple ones. You could even throw "Louie Louie" and "Wild Thing" in there as a similarity. Pretty much the same progression, a little different tempo.

I highly doubt Felder knowingly was inspired by it, let alone "copied" it. I think it's a coincidence, nothing more.

[BBKron]

OK, yes, of course, the similarities we are talking about here are the chords and chord progression used, which are nearly the same (at least for the verse part of the song), and also the guitar picked arpeggio intro lines (on a technical level, HC shifts the key from D major (Two Hangmen) to its relative minor key, B minor, probably because it has a more melancholy sound, but otherwise, same progression). And there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't take anything away from the brilliance of HC as a song or performance. I'm not saying that anything was copied or stolen, just that Two Hangmen was definitely an influence. They knew the song, liked the sound of it, and Felder used the chord progression for his instrumental demo that the band initially dubbed 'Mexican Reggae'.

Austin, of course, is right, many songs have the same chords and chord progressions, a good chunk of rock n roll is based on only a handful of different chord progressions. It doesn't mean that much. There are many different things that can be done with the melodies, arrangements, etc, that can make the same or similar chord structures into completely different songs. But to suggest that, in this case, the similarity is completely coincidental is also nonsense.

Mason Proffit, headed by the Talbot Brothers, Terry and John Michael, although may not be very well-known these days, were a very active part of and among the pioneers of the burgeoning country-rock movement in the late '60's and very early '70's, along with The Flying Burrito Brothers (with Bernie Leadon), Poco (with Randy Meisner, and later Tim Schmit), and LongBranch Pennywhistle (Glenn Frey and JD Souther), well before the Eagles came together. These guys all knew each other, played at the same clubs, often on the same bills, and were well aware of each other's music. Felder was a good friend of Bernie's, as they went to high school and were in a band together, and also became a part of this loose assemblage of musicians when he came to California in 1972, eventually hanging out with and jamming with the Eagles and other country-rockers (before he joined the band in 1974).

Now, I don't have any direct links or references to exactly what was said or when these particular interviews took place, but this is what Terry Talbot claims on his Mason Proffit website, and this has been generally spread around and referenced at other sites and articles, too:
"Terry Talbot and Mason Proffit recorded five albums on the Warner Bros. label and their opening acts included John Denver, The Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan and Dan Fogleberg. As stated by Bernie Leadon and Glen Frey, “The Eagles were greatly influenced by Mason Proffit and followed the design of Two Hangmen for their Hotel California.”
Later, with brother John, Terry toured as the opening act for The Eagles and earned early recognition as an accomplished guitarist with Glen Campbell, Chad Mitchell and Sonny and Cher."

I don't know much about Felder's personal musical influences, but Glenn and Bernie were definitely fans of and friends with Mason Proffit and the Talbot brothers, certainly knew Two Hangmen, and probably even played it themselves back in those days. And Felder probably had some of the same musical influences and preferences, and was likely aware of the song, if not a fan of it. So, it is no stretch to say that Mason Proffit and Two Hangmen were influences on the band, and HC, in particular. But, again, there is nothing wrong with that, and actually quite an honor for what is now a mostly long-forgotten band, Mason Proffit.

[BBKron]

OK, one other related tidbit I just found when looking up info on Mason Proffit and Two Hangmen. John Michael Talbot (formerly of Mason Proffit), who went on to later success with spiritual and Christian Music, has said that he and his brother (Terry) actually almost joined the Eagles, back in 1975 after Bernie left, but that their strong religious beliefs ultimately nixed the union.

Here is an excerpt from an article from Lubbock Online, Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, Nov.12, 2009, titled "Talbot finds success in choosing to write, play spiritual music":
"John Michael Talbot had tiptoed along the border of rock stardom with his brother, Terry. This followed a stretch in the early 1970s when entertainers ranging from John Denver and Dan Fogleberg to the Doobie Brothers and Mac Davis all had opened for the Talbot brothers’ band, called Mason Proffit. Rather than rock stardom, multi-instrumentalist John Michael Talbot found success as a Christian troubadour, recording 50 albums, being honored with Grammy and Dove award nominations and wearing the mantle of top-selling Catholic singer-songwriter. ...
John Michael was the younger Talbot in Mason Proffit, which released five albums between 1969 and 1974. He played banjo, guitar and pedal steel guitar. Acclaimed musician Earl Scruggs once described him as “the best banjo player I’ve ever heard.”
His brother Terry, however, was the leader of Mason Proffit. The band performed almost 300 concerts per year. But when Warner Bros. Records decided it was time to give Mason Proffit the same push it had given the Doobie Brothers, Talbot said Terry nixed the deal, saying, “I’m tired. I quit.”...
When Bernie Leadon left the Eagles in 1975, another decision would affect the Talbots — one based on their Christian backgrounds.
The Talbots were drifting toward the Jesus Movement. John Michael said, “It was left up to (Eagles members) Don Henley and Glenn Frey. Glenn wanted us to join the Eagles. He knew how good we were and thought it would be cool.
“Frey was the one who said, 'I can’t cut all that Jesus stuff.’ ... So they wound up hiring Joe Walsh — and the Eagles became a rock ’n’ roll band. Terry and I had been into country rock. Obviously, everything worked out good for everybody. Truthfully, I am very grateful."
Here is the full article, for those interested http://lubbockonline.com/stories/111...15388974.shtml, although what I excerpted is the only part that relates to the Eagles

Wow! This is certainly the first I ever heard about this, and don't know how true it is (may be exaggeration or fondly remembered wishful thinking, like, "Yeah, I coulda been in the Eagles"). I know that they were all friends at that time, but it seems a bit of a stretch considering the Eagles were already heading in a more rock-oriented direction that they would be considering adding 2 hardcore country-rockers (and one of the best banjo players around) to the band at this point. But it is definitely an interesting bit of information. Imagine how different the band would have been if they would have gone this way instead of with Joe Walsh. But I'm sure everyone here will agree with John's overall assessment that "Obviously, everything worked out good for everyone".

Just very interesting, regardless.

[Topkat]

His brother Terry, however, was the leader of Mason Proffit. The band performed almost 300 concerts per year. But when Warner Bros. Records decided it was time to give Mason Proffit the same push it had given the Doobie Brothers, Talbot said Terry nixed the deal, saying, “I’m tired. I quit.”...
When Bernie Leadon left the Eagles in 1975, another decision would affect the Talbots — one based on their Christian backgrounds.
The Talbots were drifting toward the Jesus Movement. John Michael said, “It was left up to (Eagles members) Don Henley and Glenn Frey. Glenn wanted us to join the Eagles. He knew how good we were and thought it would be cool.
“Frey was the one who said, 'I can’t cut all that Jesus stuff.’ ... So they wound up hiring Joe Walsh — and the Eagles became a rock ’n’ roll band.

How is it that none of this has been mentioned in the books about the Eagles. I have read 3 books about them, & these guys were never mentioned, (especially the part about Glenn wanting them to join the Eagles.) Joe had been touring with the Eagles & was also represented by Irv Asoff, who recommended him to join the Eagles. At the time, when Bernie left the band, they agreed that they were going to go with a harder rock direction. (Which is in part what the disagreements were about with Bernie)
Joe has said in an interview,(that was posted here someplace) that he was in the Eagles before he really joined the Eagles & had been jamming with them on the road, as they toured together.

You also say in this statement that "Glenn wanted us to join the Eagles...
"Frey was the one who said,"I can't cut all that Jesus stuff." ????? I don't get this statement.

I'm just a bit skeptical about the part where they say they almost joined the Eagles. Just my opinion.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I have to admit to being skeptical as well. First, the article talks about growing up Methodist and rebelling against that. Then the bit about the Eagles. Then taking out time to explore various religions including Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and those of Native Americans. Then Christianity and becoming Catholic in 1978.

It's been pretty well documented that basically, Bernie left one day, Joe was asked to replace him the next day. Or a similar timeline. Glenn has often said there was no question and none others considered. Hmm.

[Freypower]

Total wishful thinking; it has never, ever been mentioned by anyone in the Eagles.

[sodascouts]

It would be nice to have a source outside of the Talbots themselves to confirm such claims. It does seem improbable that they were on the verge of joining the Eagles and Joe Walsh was only considered after the Tabolts were rejected. That claim goes against a number of reputable sources, in fact, which all state Joe Walsh was pretty much in the bag when Bernie left (note that not just Joe himself says this) - and that they were interested in Joe from the outset precisely because he would enable them to be more rock-oriented. The last thing they would want to do is add folk-oriented musicians like the Talbots at that point. This also makes me dubious about their claim that the Eagles based Hotel California on their song.