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Thread: Phil Collins / Genesis

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    I'm saying this as a huge Glenn fan, and as an even bigger Tony fan:

    They both may be control freaks, but there's one big difference IMO. As far as I know Glenn's controlling has always been based on what he sees is the best for the band. Tony, on the other hand, has always been fighting to get his own stuff through - at least before they started writing all the stuff together in the 80's. Even Tony himself has admitted that he got the most grumpy if his material wasn't accepted.

    So there's a big difference.

    Having said that, I love Tony. I've read/seen a lot of interviews. He's a very funny guy, although he tends to look nervous most of the time.

    And yeah, Steve Hackett has released tons of inventive music since he left Genesis. I've seen him complain about two things.
    1) His music was rejected. Tony admitted in the documentary that whoever got the grumpiest if his music wasn't accepted won. So it wasn't necessarily about the quality of the material.
    2) His solo career was completely ignored in the documentary. The other guys agree.

    So unlike Don F, Steve hasn't complained about a lot of things that the rest of the guys disagree upon.

    Freypower, it's nice that you're starting to like Tony more. As for Tony having the final word, I think he's the guy who's best at remembering all their music. Mike has admitted that he forgets even his own parts. At the start of the "reunion" rehearsals Phil wasn't even sure what the song "Domino" was. Tony seems to have a great memory. He also had heard all their albums recently since he was very much involved with the new mixes. Phil said a few times that this time around he really started to understand Tony and they got along better than ever. I guess they all had loosened up at that point.
    Last edited by chaim; 09-13-2015 at 06:33 AM.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    I'm a big fan of Genesis, I love Tony but he's definitely the biggest whinger in the band. I've heard him moaning about Genesis fans ignoring his solo career. Moaning about Mellotrons. Moaning about playing live. Moaning about Steve Hackett getting all the credit for the Firth Of Fifth even though Tony wrote it. I can see he get's his way the majority of the time.

    During the Genesis documentary, there was a scene with Phil, suggesting to Tony, very probably after numerous previous discussions on the topic, that they adjust one of their medleys. I think it was the "Duke" medley, that opened the concert. Tony wasn't interested and Phil didn't have the stomach for a fight over it. It was uncharacteristically lame. I was pleased to see Phil wanted to improve it.

    I'm still hoping Phil can get his drumming back up to scratch so another Genesis chapter is still ahead of us. Unless Joe Walsh and Elbow inextricably join musical forces, There's nobody who can adequately fill the void they left behind, when they split up.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    Quote Originally Posted by Funk 50 View Post
    I'm a big fan of Genesis, I love Tony but he's definitely the biggest whinger in the band. I've heard him moaning about Genesis fans ignoring his solo career. Moaning about Mellotrons. Moaning about playing live. Moaning about Steve Hackett getting all the credit for the Firth Of Fifth even though Tony wrote it. I can see he get's his way the majority of the time.

    During the Genesis documentary, there was a scene with Phil, suggesting to Tony, very probably after numerous previous discussions on the topic, that they adjust one of their medleys. I think it was the "Duke" medley, that opened the concert. Tony wasn't interested and Phil didn't have the stomach for a fight over it. It was uncharacteristically lame. I was pleased to see Phil wanted to improve it.

    I'm still hoping Phil can get his drumming back up to scratch so another Genesis chapter is still ahead of us. Unless Joe Walsh and Elbow inextricably join musical forces, There's nobody who can adequately fill the void they left behind, when they split up.
    This is very interesting. If that scene was taken from the Come Rain Or Shine documentary (where they are preparing for the short reunion tour), I don't remember it. And I've seen it many times. Maybe I just ignore all that stuff because I'm a big Tony fan. In the Together & Apart documentary there was some "creative editing" too. I mentioned this earlier in this thread. There's a scene that was taken from the CROS documentary. Mike or Phil wonders which songs they should do (or something like that). Tony says, laughing, "Well, try a few and see what happens". Tony's comment was lifted from another situation. Tony was actually referring to guitar tunings. Mike couldn't remember the guitar tuning in Cinema Show. Tony just jokingly asked him to try a few guitar tunings and see what happens. So I wouldn't be surprised if there had been more "creative editing" going on.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    Reading the book made me see Tony in a different light. Believe it or not, before I thought that he was the laidback guy of the group.
    I now know that Mike Rutherford is that guy. I still haven't seen any docs on the band yet, except for a bit of Sum of the Parts.

    I now see Tony as a huge driving force behind the band. Was his controlling nature selfish at times? Yes. To quote David Geffen: "he's a malcontent". Like FP, I found myself being drawn toward Tony. Before, Mike had been the guy who I liked best. Now, I can't really decide. I haven't listen to Tony's solo work, so I can't have an opinion about his work being ignored.

    Here's the thing with Tony, he's not a front man. Peter and Phil were. I doubt that most casual Genesis fans know his name. Tony was always over to the side a bit playing his heart out. (I sometimes think that Tony's fingers have unbreakable bones). While some people take note of him, it's not the same as Peter up there wearing a fox's head and a dress or Phil playing drums and singing or just singing. Tony rarely, if ever, had the spotlight on himself. I think that that's why he's kinda forgotten about or pushed aside.
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    Quote Originally Posted by chaim View Post
    I'm saying this as a huge Glenn fan, and as an even bigger Tony fan:

    They both may be control freaks, but there's one big difference IMO. As far as I know Glenn's controlling has always been based on what he sees is the best for the band. Tony, on the other hand, has always been fighting to get his own stuff through - at least before they started writing all the stuff together in the 80's. Even Tony himself has admitted that he got the most grumpy if his material wasn't accepted.

    So there's a big difference.

    Having said that, I love Tony. I've read/seen a lot of interviews. He's a very funny guy, although he tends to look nervous most of the time.

    And yeah, Steve Hackett has released tons of inventive music since he left Genesis. I've seen him complain about two things.
    1) His music was rejected. Tony admitted in the documentary that whoever got the grumpiest if his music wasn't accepted won. So it wasn't necessarily about the quality of the material.
    2) His solo career was completely ignored in the documentary. The other guys agree.

    So unlike Don F, Steve hasn't complained about a lot of things that the rest of the guys disagree upon.

    Freypower, it's nice that you're starting to like Tony more. As for Tony having the final word, I think he's the guy who's best at remembering all their music. Mike has admitted that he forgets even his own parts. At the start of the "reunion" rehearsals Phil wasn't even sure what the song "Domino" was. Tony seems to have a great memory. He also had heard all their albums recently since he was very much involved with the new mixes. Phil said a few times that this time around he really started to understand Tony and they got along better than ever. I guess they all had loosened up at that point.
    I've gone from complete lack of knowledge to the other way around. Maybe I could have seen it the way F50 sees it in his post above, as Tony being a 'whinger'. I did see some elements of that but I chose to focus on the huge amount he has contributed. I would like to hear his solo work; he has just released a four disc box set of it.

    I have to say I also don't remember the conversation about the Duke's Travels medley being in Together & Apart. I haven't watched Come Rain Or Come Shine yet.

    Thanks for these posts. I was hesitant to say anything yesterday as I didn't want to feel self-indulgent. There are still huge gaps in my knowledge. I don't even feel that I can do my usual trick of listing a top ten favourite songs, as at the moment it is all Collins era. I will say something though; I tend to get songs stuck in my head. If you look back through the thread I went through a That's All & then Home By The Sea phase (can't get enough of either song). Then it was Ripples, then Jesus He Knows Me & I Can't Dance. NOW it's I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe).

    Something else; if Tony were as humourless, etc, as some may wish to paint him, what was he doing in the videos? They were all big Monty Python fans. When I sat down to watch the videos from start to finish (although they are in reverse order until the Calling All Stations videos, which are tucked away at the end) I thought 'how did they persuade this serious, solemn guy to make the Illegal Alien, Jesus He Knows Me & I Can't Dance videos'? Well, he's in them.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    They all (the "classic five") have a great sense of humor. Steve's humor tends to by rather dry. He will say something hilarious with a completely straight face. One thing I remember laughing at was Steve discussing Genesis lyrics in an earlier Genesis doc. Steve said that, comparing to rock lyrics in general, perhaps the Genesis lyrics had less to do with the mating ritual and more with.....(don't remember this).
    Mike is very funny. Phil is, of course. Tony often makes fun of himself - especially his solo "career". One example of Tony humor, as told by Steve years ago. Various members who had been in Genesis at some point had gathered together for the Archives "reunion". This was when Genesis wasn't active anymore. Tony asked everyone to gather together. People did so, thinking Tony was going to take a group photo. When people had gathered together, Tony said "Look. These are the people we have managed to sack".

    As for his solo career, as a huge Tony fan I'm sad to say that I don't like a lot of his solo music. To me a lot of it sounds like he was trying too hard to do something that isn't his cup of tea - nice, simple little pop songs that masses like. I agree with Mike that Tony's lyrics also prevent him from becoming a hit maker.
    Some great solo songs that come to mind. Most of them are ballads:

    Water Out Of Wine
    Still It Takes Me By Surprise
    That Night
    An Island In The Darkness
    Never Let Me Go
    The whole A Curious Feeling album

    Some (IMO) great Genesis tracks written solely by Tony:

    Mad Man Moon (my all time favorite song. Unbelievable beauty)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ_U4XkAarE
    Me And Sarah Jane (the last Genesis song written solely by Tony, and probably the last Genesis song in the "weird" category)
    Evidence Of Autumn (This was left off the Duke album. Why? I'll never know. It's gorgeous.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8h0Wz6Z5nU
    Heathaze

    He has released two orchestral albums. I love "Six".

    Ripples is one of the greatest Genesis songs, and it's a bit surprising to me that except for the instrumental, which I believe Tony wrote, the song seems to be Mike's. Such a moving lyric about aging and those fascinating chord changes are more "Tonyish". Mike's music, and later lyrics, tended to be rather simple and less unique.
    Last edited by chaim; 09-15-2015 at 04:19 AM.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    Thank you Toni for giving me this extra information. Can Evidence of Autumn be found on the Collins era Archive collection?

    Doesn't Me & Sarah Jane (lovely song) pre-date Mama? Don't you consider Mama 'weird'?

    Ripples is my favourite song from A Trick Of The Tail, but I have to say the chorus, great though it is, seems too loud for the rest of the song!

    I swore I wouldn't start posting photos but excuse just this one as it's so cute.


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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    I first heard Evidence Of Autumn on the Genesis Archive 2 (Collins era). I don't own it myself. I have the song on my Three Sides Live CD, which has a few studio bonus tracks. I just noticed that it was the B-side of Misunderstanding. I don't want to bash Misunderstanding. It's a nice pop song. And it sounds like a hit. But I'd rather have had EOA unreleased than put it on the B-side of such a simple boy/girl tune! Unless my memory fails me, a few years ago Tony said that he would have replaced Mike's Alone Tonight with EOA on Duke. I still remember Tony's exact words about Alone Tonight, and I agree: "A less remarkable offering". Those guys can diss each other's stuff honestly, without being mean. I guess they love each other enough. Mike and Phil laugh at Tony's love for strange chords.

    You are right about "weird". As soon as I had typed that adjective I felt that it's not the right word for what I wanted to say. I still don't know the most accurate way to describe it, but Me & Sarah Jane in a way has the last signs of the "old school" Genesis. Tony's weird chords, many sections, bizarre lyric etc. combined in one song. I know that some other people too feel that this was the last Genesis song that was more connected to their old musical style. On the other hand the finale is perhaps closer to their 80's style.

    That's a very nice picture, taken by Peter. Mike looks sweet as ever. Tony and Peter are as far from each other as they can be for a change! It's funny how in the old pictures Tony and Peter were often close to each other. (Was Tony seeking comfort from his old school mate?)

    http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/un...250-715337.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...967_lineup.jpg
    https://outbeastattatch.s3.amazonaws.com/c/97d2247.jpg
    http://luiscabral.net/misc/gen/genesislineup.gif
    https://johnrieber.files.wordpress.c...esis.jpg?w=700
    http://www.glidemagazine.com/hiddent...elgium1972.jpg
    http://assets.rollingstone.com/asset...8-85003754.jpg
    http://moonphotoshop.com/wp-content/...avoy_Hotel.jpg
    http://donignacio.com/art/genesispic.jpg
    http://www.genesis.pictures/wp-conte...14/09/HG05.jpg
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/4/...4__Genesis.jpg
    http://jacquelinevalencia.files.word.../genesis-1.jpg
    http://progsheet1.hypermart.net/shgen01.jpg
    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...1_2950328c.jpg
    http://digiphotostatic.libero.it/man...663710_med.jpg

    And here (the Archives "reunion", late 90's) Tony and Peter are close to each other again. http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/P...s-band-r22.jpg

    And there's the Together & Apart documentary: http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/def...201%20MAIN.jpg

    And of course there's the school picture of two fine boys: http://www.multinet.no/~jonarne/Hjem...briel_1966.jpg

    I love this picture, because it looks like two guys arguing about who took whose pencil that one October night at school, and then there's Mike who's just having fun: http://s3.srfcdn.ch/images/auftritte...arts_ii_s8.jpg

    The relationship between those two fascinates me, because they aren't as close anymore as they were in school, but it has been said that when the "classic five" got together to discuss a reunion (which eventually became the three man reunion), everyone assumed their old positions, and Peter and Tony were the best mates again - also with the friction that comes with it.
    Last edited by chaim; 09-15-2015 at 10:02 AM.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    I actually bought the Misunderstanding single in the early 80s when it first came out but I much preferred the b-side Evidence Of Autumn. I was delighted it's been subsequently released on some Genesis compilation albums.

    Phil's contributions to the Duke album, Misunderstanding and Please Don't Ask could have ended up on Phil's first, classic divorce album Face Value. He gave Genesis first dabs on them.

    Maybe if The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway had been more successful, they would have considered making Duke a double LP.

    Duke also marks when Genesis started writing and recording with drum machines. I'm sure with tracks like Duchess, Mama and most obviously,In The Air Tonight, Phil single handedly ended the Music Union's Keep Music Live Campaign. They felt drum machines should be banned as they were doing drummers out of a job.

    The drum machines have led to far less songs with odd and changing tempos and time signatures but I still love the band and love their music.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Phil Collins / Genesis

    I find it hard to associate the word "weird" with the Collins era of the band. To me, weird nicely sums up some of the Gabriel era songs. I prefer the word "quirky". A perfect song for that word is Robbery, Assault, and Battery off of Trick of the Tail, which is a Collins/Banks song (it's also my favorite song on the album). The music is a bit out there, but it's very catchy. I think that even later songs like I Can't Dance can be described as quirky. Just my 2 cents, though.
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