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Thread: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

  1. #791
    Border Rebel Victim of Love's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    What I find particularly interesting about the item, Soda, is that it has a recent date on it but lists MICHAEL JACKSON. Really??????
    You were just too busy being FABULOUS....

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    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    It does say musicians who played with these artists and not the artists themselves!
    VK

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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    I actually thought the same thing when I first read this and meant to post something at the time, but it slipped my mind. And no I'm not getting old - it's just that I haven't had time.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
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  4. #794
    Administrator sodascouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    The Reno interview VA linked to earlier is very interesting and insightful. I too am impressed Don answered all of the questions.

    Some comments regarding his views about the affect of file-sharing on the music industry:

    Piracy and file-sharing is wrong, and I think that's pretty established among all ages and has been for a while.

    I think it was around 2000 that I personally decided I would not download any more commercially available material, not even one song. If it is available to buy, I will - even if I can get it elsewhere.

    Some things, of course, you can't get commercially - live shows or out-of-print material, for instance - but that number is getting smaller and smaller.

    I would say by about 2001, people who were sharing commercially available songs knew it wasn't legal. They just did it anyway.

    Piracy does hurt people, and it's wrong. If you want music that's commercially available, you should buy it.

    However, Don's argument about its effect on the music industry is completely speculative with only circumstantial evidence to back it up. In fact, there is a great deal of problematic logic which this interviewer obviously didn't care to question. I don't blame Don; this is an argument which many executives in the record industry are making and he just doesn't see its holes.

    Don is speaking in good faith, but I wish he would dump the problematic argument and facts. Here's what I'm talking about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Henley in interview
    "Revenue from recorded music fell 52 percent from the year 2000 to 2010."
    That statistic was provided by the RIAA - not exactly an unbiased source. In fact, the US Government has found those numbers to be unsubstantiated. (It appears that Don trusts the RIAA a lot more now than he did when he formed the RAC.) Even granting that the fact that revenue from recorded music may have gone down in that time period, there are other influencing factors - not only obvious ones like the economy, but others you may not be aware of such as the fact that the music industry was forced by the government to stop price-fixing in 2000, stopping the industry from falsely inflating CD prices as it had in the nineties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Henley in interview
    "The underlying cause is the mindset of the new, cyber-generation – the precept that says anything and everything on the Internet is free for the taking."
    Who's he talking about here? For Don, the "new, cyber-generation" could be anybody under 40. Now, before you think I'm making a cheap age joke, let me explain: Napster became a hit in 1999, 13 years ago, and most of the people who got into it then were in college. Therefore, we're in our thirties now. However, even if you take it to mean people who were born or little kids around then - currently teenagers and twenty-somethings - it's still an unfair generalization, IMHO. I understand that Don is frustrated, but making such broad-based condemnations does not strengthen his argument.

    He also says there's a "Robin Hood" mentality of take from the rich to give to the poor. I think this is somewhat true, but there's an additional layer to it. The mentality I often see among illegal downloaders is more like this: "the record companies overcharged me and ripped me off for years and I don't want to pay what they're asking anymore. Heck, in this economy, I can't afford to." A bad attitude - just because you're starving doesn't mean it's OK to steal bread - but one that's a little more nuanced than 'stick it to the rich guy.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Henley in interview
    "Think of the music business – and it is a business – as an inverted pyramid and at the point is the popular song. Resting on, and widening out from, that point is all the commerce that the popular song creates: thousands of jobs at radio stations, at record companies, CD pressing plants, recording studios, equipment storage and rehearsal facilities, trucking companies, sound and lighting companies, instrument manufacturers, electronics manufacturers, video production, photography, graphic design, management companies, booking agencies, publishing companies, accounting firms, law firms; jobs at music venues, vendors, security people, road crew, bus drivers, food services – the list goes on and on, and I haven’t even mentioned singers and songwriters, especially the ones who are still working two or three jobs to support themselves and their families. "
    Don has used this argument before, but I wish he would find a different analogy. This one relies on a number of flawed premises. The biggest one is that the sale of the recorded popular song is what all of the industries he lists rely upon, what everyone's job depends upon. It's trickle-down economics, recording industry style: the more money made by the recording industry via recorded music sales, the most artists everywhere benefit; the more everyone who ever did anything that might be partially associated in some way with the music industry will benefit.

    On the face of it, that seems to make sense. If people aren't buying as many CDs, that means less money is going into the top, which means less money trickles down.

    However, it doesn't stand close scrutiny.

    It's a gross oversimplification to say all these industries are all losing money due to music piracy, and the conclusions gets more and more specious the further down the pyramid he goes. Example: You don't need a statistician to know that the food services industry is not reliant on feeding musicians and that the caterer for a rock star's entourage can just as readily cater the cast of The Producers, but we're still supposed to blame illegal downloading for jobs and revenue losses there. There's a name for this logical fallacy: "The slippery slope." Appropriately, it fits well with his model's shape!

    Let's look at the affected industries Don lists. The premise here is that people in all of these areas are losing money, losing their jobs, because less money is going to the top via sales of recorded music.

    Let me just name a few of the factors that render his A-leads to-Z argument problematic.

    - less jobs at radio stations: can we really blame illegal downloading for this? The digital age has brought about radio's downfall, not illegal downloading. Why listen to a tightly controlled radio playlist when you can use streaming services like Spotify to create your own playlist or use your iPod to shuffle 2000 of your favorite legally purchased songs, like your own private radio station with no commercials? Plus, what about streaming radio? The latter didn't even come into play until after downloading illegally was popular, yet people are making money off of it.

    - less jobs at record companies: yes, jobs are being lost here for sure, and out of all the groups Don lists I do believe this is the one that is taking the greatest hit. However, should we blame illegal downloading, or should we blame their unwillingness to adapt to new technologies, and their desire to instead try to force us to keep using the old technologies in order to keep money in their pockets? That mentality will lose you money quick. I'm not going to use antiquated technologies just because you are making money off of them. I'm going to buy the technology that works best for me, and if you're smart, you'll start investing in that technology rather than trying to sabotage it.

    - less jobs at CD pressing plants: This is related to the above regarding evolving technology. Yeah, they're not making as many CDs. They're making iPods and MP3 players. Jobs are not a zero-sum game, and the demise of the CD isn't about illegal downloading, it's about the popularization of digital music in MP3 form. That's why sales of blank CDs (CD-RWs) are also declining; in 2011, there was 31% more supply than demand for them, despite the fact that at one time, they were what pirated music was burned onto.

    - less jobs at recording studios: blame this one on software like Pro-Tools which allows musicians to have a digital studio at their fingertips, and no longer have to go a-begging to the record companies for studio time.

    - less jobs at equipment storage and rehearsal facilities, trucking companies, sound and lighting companies, booking agencies, music venues, vendors, security people, road crew, bus drivers, food services: woah, wait a second. I thought touring was actually a much bigger revenue stream now than it was in 2000? Indeed, that it was a major revenue stream? Aren't many of those people who are downloading your music illegally still paying to see you live? I think people associated with the touring end of the music industry are getting more work, not less!

    - less jobs for electronics manufacturers, video production, photography, graphic design, management companies: any money that they lose on the music end can be made up elsewhere. For instance, if there wasn't money in music management, Irving Azoff would manage other types of entertainers.

    - less jobs for lawyers: oh gosh, what was he thinking including this one? Music piracy means LESS jobs for lawyers? The RIAA by its own admission shelled out millions to lawyers to deal with piracy. Another reason to leave this one out is because many people think less lawyers in the music business would be a GOOD thing, just like ending a war is a good thing even though it means a lot of soldiers will have to find new jobs, not to mention all the jobs that will be lost in the defense industries such as weapon manufacturing.

    - less jobs for instrument manufacturers, singers, and songwriters: The premise here: there won't be as many musicians, because they will be discouraged from going into the industry due to the fact that they can't expect to make enough money. This is also flawed. Musicians were broke long before piracy, yet they still kept at it... and how many of them ever got to be millionaires? Very few. They had to know that.... yet they kept at it. Don was broke at one time, too. Was it really just the dream of making money that kept him in the business? Of all his arguments, this 'there won't be as much music made anymore because of the money lost to piracy' is the weakest of all. There's more music available now than ever before, since we don't have the gatekeeping of the labels. Any aspiring musician can make a video now, put it up on YouTube, get visibility... that same guy might have been told to go home by the record label. Nowadays, MORE people want to get into music, because it takes less effort to be heard.


    One could read this post as an argument that piracy is OK, that Don shouldn't be mad about it. That's not what I'm saying. Piracy is wrong. If I were a musician, I would be unhappy with my music being pirated as well.

    So you may ask, why should we care then if Don makes factual errors in trying to get people to stop downloading illegally? Don't the ends justify the means? His intention is good, so why pick apart his argument?

    Well, I don't think letting errors stand is a good idea regardless. However, even if you don't care about that, on a practical level if you are going to make an argument that one should not download illegally, you have to make sure the argument can't be shot down. Otherwise, those downloading the songs will ignore your argument and continue on their merry way undeterred.

    Here's why I don't download illegally: It's wrong. Simple as that.

    Some reading for those who are interested in this kind of thing: The Sky is Rising and some rebuttals of the authors of that report to the RIAA here.

    Always in our hearts, Never forgotten

  5. #795
    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
    Here's why I don't download illegally: It's wrong. Simple as that.
    I agree with all you've written but especially this. As a software person, I'm very sensitive to piracy and the general idea that if it can be stolen why pay for it. I actually have friends who are of the opinion that our government should stop enabling freeloaders and those who think they are owed a free ride, yet have asked me why I buy MP3s when the songs can be heard on YouTube for free.
    VK

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  6. #796
    Administrator sodascouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    I consider YouTube "streaming radio."

    On a more positive note than my previous post, I found a lot of other aspects of the article interesting as well.

    When Don is talking about the lame habit some people have of chatting on cell phones or texting during concerts, he says that they are so addicted to their devices that "We’re terminally distracted." I thought: sounds like a great song lyric! lol

    He says analog sounds "warmer" - you know, I'd never thought of comparing analog with digital when it's in the same format (both CDs as opposed to one being CD and one vinyl, for instance.) I'll have to investigate that, and not be so quick to discount it as nostalgia talking. It's cool he's aware of Joe's album, too!

    I always love it when he talks about fan responses to "Heart of the Matter." That song is so amazing - it was that song that made me truly a fan of Don Henley's music. I mean, I loved "Boys of Summer," but "Heart of the Matter" has incredible emotional power.

    As others have commented, I love that he sums up his career as "Longer and better than I ever imagined. I am amazed and grateful every day."

    Always in our hearts, Never forgotten

  7. #797
    Border Desperado BramwenR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    Wow, Soda..that's some explanation you've got there.

    One thing that niggles at me - and Don is missing this very important fact - that anything posted on YouTube, for example, is promoting the artist. The poster just gets the kudos. Not once have I seen mentioned the word 'promotion'.

    When people pay money to go see any artist/s play, the music has already been successful and anything fans post on YouTube is just promotion. Why can't he see that? It's not as if the fan is making any money by posting it on YouTube, Daily Motion, Flixster or any other cyber vehicle for video cyberplay.

    The average fan is just posting concert stuff to share with other fans and if you look at the general quality of that, why would they think they could make money off it anyway? And now most of them are riddled with ads, so who gets the revenue from that?

    I am totally against piracy too, I never buy anything off the net, MP3 or otherwise because I prefer the hardware, not the software. If it's unattainable legitmately I don't go looking for it illegally.

    Your arguments dissecting Don's claims carry a lot of weight, he has been through some heavy stuff with record companies and quite rightly he blows off lots of steam about it but then there are those, like yourself, who would question some of his complaints.

    As for the copyright issue he has a beef with, I agree up to a point. But I think it goes a bit overboard when video cameras are vetoed at his shows and cameras are allowed. Maximum exposure is maximum exposure. The majority of artists don't mind if you film them, in Australia for example the majority of shows I have gone to don't have a problem with it. Free publicity.

    In most cases where they do have a problem with videocams are the venues themselves but then, for security reasons. Some of the biggest names who come here don't mind because they know a great number of videos are going to end up on their official sites and be promoted on YouTube. If artist/s want to showcase new material in solo shows then I agree, it is pre-empting anything that is previously unreleased..as was the case with TBS recently.

    However it's quite obvious nothing anybody says is going to change his stance. Some interesting facts you brought up there.
    I See what You see...

  8. #798
    Stuck on the Border EaglesKiwi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    Thanks for your thoughtful and thought-provoking commentary on Don's interview, Soda.

    I have a few thoughts to add:

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
    Piracy and file-sharing is wrong, and I think that's pretty established among all ages and has been for a while.
    Absolutely it's wrong, and it seems really simple to me - however I'm not sure that it's established "among all ages". I think teenagers have "grown up" with YouTube and so may similar sites, plus social networking, email, text etc etc and they send links to files, copies of stuff etc without ever stopping to think whether they are infringing on copyright first.

    The most successful tactic I've used to counter this is to buy my teenager iTunes gift cards whenever he does something particularly good, so he can go buy stuff. If only he was "good" a lot more, that might actually work...


    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
    Some things, of course, you can't get commercially - live shows or out-of-print material, for instance - but that number is getting smaller and smaller.
    This is getting close to one of my pet peeves, so I'm going to go ahead & raise it. The material you can buy legally varies by country. We are now well into the 21st century and the recording industry has not yet grasped the concept of a global market - they are not doing themselves any favours. Music should be released globally and it should be at globally consistent pricing (with a small allowance for any genuine additional costs incurred selling in multiple markets). If you can't find a legal copy of something easily and at a reasonable price, it's tempting to go look for ANY copy.

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
    - less jobs for electronics manufacturers, video production, photography, graphic design, management companies: any money that they lose on the music end can be made up elsewhere. For instance, if there wasn't money in music management, Irving Azoff would manage other types of entertainers.
    Another example - there are opportunities in the creation & production of DVDs - concert recordings, documentaries, compliations etc. Look for the new opportunities!

    Quote Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
    - less jobs for instrument manufacturers, singers, and songwriters: The premise here: there won't be as many musicians, because they will be discouraged from going into the industry due to the fact that they can't expect to make enough money. This is also flawed. Musicians were broke long before piracy, yet they still kept at it... at how many of them ever got to be millionaires? Very few. They had to know that.... yet they kept at it. Don was broke at one time, too. Was it really just the dream of making money that kept him in the business? Of all his arguments, this 'there won't be as much music made anymore because of the money lost to piracy' is the weakest of all. There's more music available now than ever before, since we don't have the gatekeeping of the labels. Any aspiring musician can make a video now, put it up on YouTube, get visibility... that same guy might have been told to go home by the record label. Nowadays, MORE people want to get into music, because it takes less effort to be heard.
    I think the valid point here would be that musicians should have the ability to earn a living from their craft, and I have no argument with that. Whether they have more or less opportunity to do that now... I just don't know. So much of the contemporary music I hear now just doesn't sound like music to me, and yet these performers (I won't call them artists or singers) seem to make rather a lot of money. Are there people out there who genuinely have the talent who aren't getting heard - well yes, I'm sure there are - as there have always been. ("I don't know why fortune smiles on some, & let's the rest go free...").b

    re: more people wanting to get into music - I think the people with the talent to be musicans have always WANTED to be musicians - nowadays the opportunities exist to record & broadcast your music at lower cost (via YouTube etc). Will that ultimately lead to selling enough music to make a living - well it has worked for some. Unfortunately some of the people making the most money aren't the ones with the most talent, but that's perhaps more of a reflection on audience "taste"
    ---------------------------------
    Suzanne

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    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    VK

    You can't change the world but you can change yourself.

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    Border Desperado BramwenR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don in the Press/Blogs/etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAisForEagleLovers View Post
    Nice little story, I always enjoy reading what fellow musos have to say about fellow musos One thing that always amazes me is how someone is always able to drum and sing at the same time.

    It's like that thing we try and do, rub our tummies and pat our heads..one side or other of the brain must take over for drummers, I swear, it's hard!!
    I See what You see...

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