Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

[VAisForEagleLovers]

FP, of course I agree with you, and Toni, too.

I have to wonder... after what happened at Long Beach and how it all ended in 1980, given 14 years to think about it, Felder had to have realized the errors he'd made, and I'm not talking 'I guess'. They all made errors, so I'm not really wanting to discuss that, but he knew he'd crossed a line that Glenn couldn't and wouldn't handle. Then they have the reunion and he gets asked back. Think about this. His contributions to the band were mostly guitar work, and while he's extremely talented on guitar with a touch that can't really be replicated, it can come close. He's good enough that every one picking up a guitar with the intent to master it wanted to be him, and they learned his craft and style nearly as well as he knew it. So, while they could have gotten someone to replace him who was almost as good, they didn't. So he likely thought he could do what he wanted, push as hard as he wanted, and nothing would happen. The money and fame was good enough he was certain it wouldn't just stop like it had before, either.

Like you said, FP, they could have reformed without him and they didn't. So perhaps he thought it was all fair game and regardless of the warnings from Irving, whom he knew was working both sides, he figured he could push and push and get results. He was wrong. So yes, getting fired came as a complete surprise, and learning he'd miscalculated had to have been gut-wrenching, which was why he immediately went into 'call them all and beg' mode. Far too little and far too late.

[Brooke]

I don't usually get involved here either, but I do read.

Fp and Va, perfectly said.

[UndertheWire]

FP, of course I agree with you, and Toni, too.

I have to wonder... after what happened at Long Beach and how it all ended in 1980, given 14 years to think about it, Felder had to have realized the errors he'd made, and I'm not talking 'I guess'. They all made errors, so I'm not really wanting to discuss that, but he knew he'd crossed a line that Glenn couldn't and wouldn't handle. Then they have the reunion and he gets asked back. Think about this. His contributions to the band were mostly guitar work, and while he's extremely talented on guitar with a touch that can't really be replicated, it can come close. He's good enough that every one picking up a guitar with the intent to master it wanted to be him, and they learned his craft and style nearly as well as he knew it. So, while they could have gotten someone to replace him who was almost as good, they didn't. So he likely thought he could do what he wanted, push as hard as he wanted, and nothing would happen. The money and fame was good enough he was certain it wouldn't just stop like it had before, either.

Like you said, FP, they could have reformed without him and they didn't. So perhaps he thought it was all fair game and regardless of the warnings from Irving, whom he knew was working both sides, he figured he could push and push and get results. He was wrong. So yes, getting fired came as a complete surprise, and learning he'd miscalculated had to have been gut-wrenching, which was why he immediately went into 'call them all and beg' mode. Far too little and far too late.

VA, I usually agree with you but I think you're being too harsh/one-side in this last post.

Felder was aware that he might be excluded from the reunion - it's in his book. He was also concious that what he was doing irritated/upset Frey - again, it's in his book. All I can think is that he felt he was in the right and that others, including Henley would see his side.Where he miscalculated is that whatever friction there might be between Henley and Frey, they would still stand together against any threats.

I pretty much agree with FP's post. Felder spent most of those 14 years just waiting for the call and when it came, he seems to have expected an idealised version of the 1980s band - all equals but without the coke-induced problems, perhaps. Meanwhile, Frey had been enjoying being "the head of a succesful dictatorship rather than a failed democracy" and there was no way he was going back to the old ways.

I do feel sorry for Felder. While he was resting, the music business moved on without him.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

VA, I usually agree with you but I think you're being too harsh/one-side in this last post.

Felder was aware that he might be excluded from the reunion - it's in his book. He was also concious that what he was doing irritated/upset Frey - again, it's in his book. All I can think is that he felt he was in the right and that others, including Henley would see his side.Where he miscalculated is that whatever friction there might be between Henley and Frey, they would still stand together against any threats.

I pretty much agree with FP's post. Felder spent most of those 14 years just waiting for the call and when it came, he seems to have expected an idealised version of the 1980s band - all equals but without the coke-induced problems, perhaps. Meanwhile, Frey had been enjoying being "the head of a succesful dictatorship rather than a failed democracy" and there was no way he was going back to the old ways.

I do feel sorry for Felder. While he was resting, the music business moved on without him.

Yes, he was aware that he might not have been part of the reunion, but the fact that he was invited back maybe indicated to him they felt they couldn't do it without him. It's JMO, but it meant that for that and other reasons he felt comfortable pushing them. Keeping in mind that the feelings that had been harbored against him in the 70's came from constant pushing, always wanting more of just about everything, and playing Glenn off against Henley and vice-versa, this jumps out at me from about page 311:

Despite Irving’s repeated warnings not to make waves, I never stopped asking to see the various documents that would allow me and my attorneys to assess the deals that Don, Glenn, and Irving were making, especially this new one, which could potentially be our most important. Because of my continued interest in the current negotiations, many of the feelings that had been harbored against me in the seventies and eighties resurfaced. I was made to feel isolated and out of the loop once more. For whatever reason, the Triumvirate didn’t like me asking too many questions.

Maybe because of my newfound courage from having just dealt with the unhappiness of my marriage, I didn’t take Irving’s warnings too seriously. Susan and I had a long way to go before we’d be talking again, but the fact that I had faced up to the demise of my marriage and come out the other side lulled me into a false sense of security as to how much I could push a situation. Incident after incident with Don, Glenn, and Irving made me realize that the time was coming when I would have to stand up to “The Gods” as well, and say or do something to stop them treating the rest of us like lowly subordinates.

ETA: Perhaps I am too hard on him...I re-read parts of the book again last night and I'm irked all over again.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Regarding the 'bias' we seem to have, and those like BTS who watch the documentary and read the book and have 'unbiased' opinions, what it really means is that those who really follow the band have read and listened to all the interviews given by all parties throughout the decades. We don't have all the facts, because only Glenn, Don, Irving, Felder and their lawyers have all those. But we have more facts than those who have only watched the documentary and read the book.

[chaim]

I would very much like to know how much Don (F) was really thinking about Bernie and Randy when he sued. It seems to me that he wasn't worrying about them that much when he was in the Eagles. But what do I know...

I would also like to know if those "remember Bernie and Randy" threats actually happened that he menions in the book, or if it was just something he felt.

[UndertheWire]

Ok, that certainly sounds pushy. I'd forgotten about that part.

I also wonder if the increased confidence came from the success of HFO and the Millenium concerts. He must have thought he had a better negotiating position that in 1994 when he'd been retired for 10 years.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

First of all, kudos to everyone who has kept this discussion civil.

I don't contribute much to this thread anymore because, quite honestly, as a long time board member, I'm kinda burnt out on the subject after following it for almost 15 years. I don't say that to pass judgment though because I realize that this is very intriguing stuff to talk about for some folks. However, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people form their opinion on unknown or uninformed facts so I will often chime in if I feel things are being misstated or misrepresented. In this case, I think it is important to clarify that under the terms of the 1994 contract, Felder was no longer a 1/3 owner of Eagles, Inc. As stated in his book, he, Joe, and Tim each received 1/7 of the earnings; Don H. and Glenn received 2/7’s apiece. I totally get how people can watch or hear something and have a gut reaction to it. But, I think we all know that first impressions usually aren't that accurate because most things in real life are much more complex.

I've said this all before about this subject, but there are some people who believe that less information makes you more objective. I happen to believe if you don’t have all the facts in a situation, then there is no way that you are able to judge the situation in an unbiased manner. So, that includes all of us here since none of us are in that position. However, the more information and perspectives that we do have enables us to judge a situation more objectively. I realize this is a very long thread, but if I must say so myself, I believe it is very informative. Is it biased - yes, it is ... but biased opinions on all sides of the issue are well-represented. There also happens to be a lot of factual information here as well, particularly about the details of what is publicly known about the lawsuit. So, IMHO, for anyone who is truly interested in learning more about the topic, it is very worthwhile reading. I certainly don't claim to know everything there is to know about the band, but I have been following Felder's dismissal very closely ever since it happened. The more I read, hear, and see, the more insight I have gotten. For me, more is better when it comes to discussing any topic.

[MaryCalifornia]

Can someone remind me what Glenn said in HoTE regarding Felder, Joe's sobriety, and HFO? Didn't it come across that at the time, they weren't sure about Joe - that they were forced to bring Felder in because the needed at least one of them? I might be "mis-remembering," but I was left with the impression, just from those few words, that if they had known that Joe would be good to go, they would not have needed to keep Felder around. However, the uncertainty of Joe's ability to tour and the resulting possibility of only 3 Eagles being involved was not a risk they were willing to take, which is understandable. Too bad hindsight is 20/20!!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I remember Irving saying they needed Joe or Felder or preferably both.