Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

[luvthelighthouse]

I have really appreciated reading the posts of today. It's very easy for me to see both sides of the coin. Of course none of us will ever know the real truth. All we can do is speculate from the information given to us.

Now, I've stated this before. Felder should have named the book Poor Poor Millionaire Rockstar Victim. I do not think that anyone disputes Felder's talent. I think the majority of fans enjoyed his contributions, self included. However, as far as his book goes... well, IMO, he plays the victim better than anyone. I'm sorry, but I do not believe him to be as naive has he pretended to be. I would have preferred if he owned his own behaviors instead of making excuses for them. I trail from the current discussion though.

Personally, and this is just MY opinion, so take if for what it's worth, certainly not gold. I believe in the beginning there was a mutual respect for the music between Frey, Henley and Felder. As time went on, I believe personalities and egos began playing bigger parts than the music. At some point, I think the three guys just began tolerating each other. Let's face it, not all people mesh.

I honestly believe that Frey/Henley had a solid friendship, so the years apart didn't seem so vast when they reunited. Their foundation was laid and it was easy to pick up from a good place. I do not believe that was the case with Felder. Frey/Henley didn't have that relationship w/Felder and they never would. So Frey/Henley banded together and Felder was the outsider. This is not good or bad, just what is was. My guess is that after the 14 year hiatus, F/H didn't really wish to continue the same contractual agreement they once had and that's when things became ugly. Up to this point, I see no "issues". However, I feel that the behaviors of Frey/Henley and Azoff have something to be desired. As it is very well known around here, I am huge fan of the guys and their music, but I really think the whole Felder situation could have been handled better. I would have liked for F/H to have sit down w/Felder and explain that they were creating a new company and it would no longer be equal. I guess I'm saying, honesty would have been best, even if Felder didn't like it. It would have been easy to state the case that after 14 years, things had changed. At that point, Felder may (or may not) have been more receptive, if they had been open with him. I'm sure he realized that he wasn't making it as solo act like the other two. Also, it's not like he only stood to make 200k a year, which many of us here on the board would love to make! Yes, I believe Felder was screwed over to an extent, BUT, I do not think he was innocent or the victim he plays. I think he had his share of wrong doings as well. His book is evidence, IMO, of the way he plays the martyr. I think there was greed from all four parts. Frey, Henley, Felder and especially Azoff.

From some past interview, and I’m sorry I can’t recall where I read it… Timothy stated that Glenn wanted him to have equal shares, not with songwriting credits, but off of merchandising and concerts. Now, if this is incorrect, someone please speak up. That is why Timothy can still make millions being an Eagle, even if his songwriting credits are minimal. Probably the reason Walsh doesn’t complain either. They are still making money w/out being equal parts in the corporate name. Yes, I know that was not the deal made with Felder… but again, this is where I feel F/H should have spoken up in 1994 and made changes.

On a last note, I want to believe that Felder did not sign away his royalties to HC, because IMO, that would be just plain wrong on his part!

[TxBluesMan]

Perhaps the reason Henley and Frey's names appear on the majority of the work is because they were the gatekeepers as to what went on the albums. I know Felder and probably the others submitted a lot of work that they (Henley/Frey) didn't deem up to their standards, although, they didn't cast such a critical eye on their own work. And remember that for each song that was written during his tenure, Felder was involved in working out the guitar parts and solos even though he wasn't given credit (pretty sure Frey isn't technically profficient enough to have written those parts himself) as opposed to Frey's "change a word, get a third" method. Every member of that band brought something to the table that made the band special and contributed to its success, not just the fact that Henley is a gifted lyricist/singer and Frey has a half-way decent voice. Like Lennon/McCartney, we'll probably never know just how much Frey contributed lyrically. So I don't buy an argument that says Henley and Frey were worth more just because their names appear on more songs than anyone else.

The fact that Henley and Frey hated each other at various times doesn't negate the fact that they realized that by joining forces against their own bandmates, they could get a whole lot richer a whole lot quicker. The 2000 contract related to the Selected Works 72-79 is a perfect example. The company created to handle the boxed set was to be solely owned by Henley and Frey despite the fact that all the other guys in the band had a whole lot to do with the work that was done during that period of time and that's not even including Meisner and Leadon who made significant contributions to the recordings made during the early days of the band.

As for the $200 Million dollar figure, that's the first time I've heard of that. I'd always heard that his suit was for $50 Million, but you know how bargaining goes, the first offer is always going to be higher than what you really want. As far as the case taking so long to be settled, that was a matter of court scheduling and not foot dragging by Felder. Felder states in his book that in 2001 they were given a court date for 2006. It wasn't until sometime after Felder's deposition that Henley and Frey folded and settled. And no one (none of the parties involved) would disagree that Felder came out way ahead in this settlement, which he wouldn't have if his case didn't have merit. That's probably why Henley/Frey had the settlement sealed, they didn't want the specifics of their dirty dealing being made public and they paid Felder enough so that he wouldn't disclose anything either. I was hoping to get some more details on the settlement in his book, but obviously Felder toed the line on nondisclosure.

Was the 3X figure on the link I submitted correct or not? Without being able to look at the contract, it would be very hard to determine. But based on the fact that Henly/Frey's previous contract gave them each 2/7 as opposed to the 1/7 for everyone else (per the book), it isn't inconceivable that with the 2000 contract they'd try to take an even bigger piece of the pie.

It's interesting that Henley and Frey tired to stop Felder's book from coming out by claiming breech of contract and not libel. That's a pretty clear indication that what Felder wrote was true.

Whether or not Felder's conduct was hypocritical is debatable. The way I see it he was the go along to get along kind of guy and tried to maintain peace among the various factions and swallowed a lot of crap in his desire to keep performing the music he loved (with musicians of his caliber it's always about the music first, the money is just a nice side benefit), but they just pushed him a little too far. There are just those kinds of people that repress their anger over wrongs committed against them until they eventually explode and I think that's what happend with Felder. Was Felder's writing about every little slight petty? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think we would have gotten as accurate an indication of what kind of guys Henley and Frey were without those anecdotes.

If in the bussiness world a partnership would collapse just because one of the partners wanted a look at the books, there probably wouldn't be many companys that would last long. Some people think it was petty of Felder to get his attorney involved in 2000, but when your partners and your own manager keep stalling and denying you your right to review the company's finances, what else are you supposed to do?

I know I lay a lot of the blame at Henley and Frey's feet, but I'd really like to know to what extent Azoff played those parties against each other and manipulated them for his own financial benefit. Obviously he wouldn't do anything to upset Henley and Frey because Azoff benefited from their solo efforts; whereas with Felder, if he was fired there would still be an Eagles band in his stable. So it makes sense that Azoff negotiated against Felder's interests, but Felder should have recognized the conflict of interest and acted accordingly.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

LTL that was a great post and I agree with almost everything you said except for this …

I would have liked for F/H to have sit down w/Felder and explain that they were creating a new company and it would no longer be equal. I guess I'm saying, honesty would have been best, even if Felder didn't like it. It would have been easy to state the case that after 14 years, things had changed. At that point, Felder may (or may not) have been more receptive, if they had been open with him.

I don’t know if you intended this or not but it sounds as if you think Frey and Henley were not forthcoming about the ’94 agreement. However, even Felder says that there was full disclosure and that he was fully aware of the terms. Now, I don’t know of any other details about exactly how Felder was approached, and this is JMHO, but I doubt that it really would have made any difference in the level of his satisfaction with the agreement in the long run.

TBM, I’d also like to respond to several points that you made in your last post. Again, much of this is a rehash of things that have been previously mentioned in this thread, but I feel some of your points need to be challenged. I'm not trying to nitpick - this is all in the spirit of good debate, of course.

So I don't buy an argument that says Henley and Frey were worth more just because their names appear on more songs than anyone else.

I don’t think this is the only argument being made to support the fact that Henley and Frey are much more valuable to the band than the other members. I would say that if you don’t believe that, then any attempt to convince you is feudal. I would only point to the fact that the Eagles ticket sales have suffered very little due to the loss of Felder, whereas, if they lost Frey or Henley, the band would cease to exist. And your assessment of Frey’s “half-way decent voice” is very subjective. Many people are of the opinion that his voice is incredibly versatile and unique, and just so happens to be a huge part of the band’s success.

As for the $200 Million dollar figure, that's the first time I've heard of that. I'd always heard that his suit was for $50 Million, but you know how bargaining goes, the first offer is always going to be higher than what you really want. As far as the case taking so long to be settled, that was a matter of court scheduling and not foot dragging by Felder. Felder states in his book that in 2001 they were given a court date for 2006.
It wasn't until sometime after Felder's deposition that Henley and Frey folded and settled. And no one (none of the parties involved) would disagree that Felder came out way ahead in this settlement, which he wouldn't have if his case didn't have merit. That's probably why Henley/Frey had the settlement sealed, they didn't want the specifics of their dirty dealing being made public and they paid Felder enough so that he wouldn't disclose anything either. I was hoping to get some more details on the settlement in his book, but obviously Felder toed the line on nondisclosure.

How did you draw the conclusion that “Henley and Frey folded and settled"? Whenever there is a settlement of this kind, generally it is a mutual agreement where neither party admits guilt. The reason that parties usually settle is because there is no clear winner. I would also be very reluctant to assume that it was Henley and Frey that had the settlement sealed. That is usually standard practice in high profile cases. Also, it seems to me that it is difficult to declare victory when you initially ask for $200 million and end up settling for $20-$30 million. But that is very debatable and the only reason this even came up was because you stated that Felder was not trying to hurt them – just wanted to get his due. That was clearly not the case.

Whether or not Felder's conduct was hypocritical is debatable.

I agree, but wouldn’t the same be true for Glenn Frey and Don Henley? What I don’t get about many of Felder’s supporters is that they are eager to assert that Frey and Henley are unethical, hypocritical, egotistical, greedy, power mongers, but then fail to acknowledge that Felder may have these same traits. I always thought that we should presume some culpability for all parties involved. Anyone who reads his book utilizing objective, critical thinking skills can pick out numerous times when Felder contradicts himself or is inconsistent in his recollections. I won’t bother to repeat them since there has already been much discussion in this thread about them.

But I don't think we would have gotten as accurate an indication of what kind of guys Henley and Frey were without those anecdotes.

See comments above. Again, why do we assume that everything Felder says is accurate, and that Henley and Frey are 100% the bad guys. Felder’s versions of events seem to be accepted as gospel truth with no accounting for the possibility of bias on his part.

[MikeA]

I'm not a fan of Frey outside of the Eagles...nor of Don Henley either outside of the Eagles. The same goes for TBS and Felder. Walsh, well, I'll go out of my comfort zone to see him perform, ESPECIALLY as a solo act. This is nothing new to anyone who has read any of my posts on the subject so I think that the statement I'm going to make is pretty objective.

Henley and Frey together formed a musical genius. Frey's contribution was in composition and marketing. Henley's was in lyrics and vocals. They both excelled in their areas of talent though neither was an exceptional instrumentalist although Glenn was more adept than was Henley according to what I know of the two. They worked from the beginning as a team but could not achieve what they were after as a Duo. They needed a band to complete their goals.

The point is that while Glenn Frey may not be the vocal prodigy that Henley is, he had an equal talent in that which Henley lacked and he did not have a BAD vocal. Together they were incomparable. When it came to lyrics, Frey was the spark that ignited the fire that Henley kindled. But it was Glenn who arranged the songs and was probably because of that, the force that caused the band to be known for all the harmonies they became known for.

With some exceptions, what the "other guys" (including my own hero, Joe Walsh) did was execute what Glenn and Don conceived.

From that epiphany, I would not have had issue if Glenn and Don had let Eagles LTD stay dormant with ownership split equally between the three owners and had started a new band/company consisting of Frey, Henley, Schmit, Walsh and Smith and called themselves the "Buzzards" or anything other than the "Eagles" and left Felder out of the picture <LOL>.

[luvthelighthouse]

Mike, I will admit, I’m a band girl. I enjoy certain chemistries that can only be obtained in a band format. I know some solo acts use the same band member all the time, but often they change. I like to know a band and the members and take notice of each of their strengths. I agree whole heartedly about what you said about F/H.

I am all about the Eagles, but not so much about the solo efforts. Now, there are the occasional songs I like by F/H as solo acts, but for the most part, I want the Eagles. No, not the Buzzards! LoL

I really feel there were a lot of missed opportunities to handle dissolving the initial company and recreating a new company at the resumption in the mid 90’s. I’m sure in hindsight, things are clearer to all… in the end though, nothing changes. Felder is out and won’t be back. The Eagles will go on as they always have, just as long as Glenn and Don are in the band together. It has been proven by the different incarnations of the band that Glenn and Don are the brick and mortar…

[Freypower]

Henley and Frey together formed a musical genius. Frey's contribution was in composition and marketing. Henley's was in lyrics and vocals. They both excelled in their areas of talent though neither was an exceptional instrumentalist although Glenn was more adept than was Henley according to what I know of the two. They worked from the beginning as a team but could not achieve what they were after as a Duo. They needed a band to complete their goals.

The point is that while Glenn Frey may not be the vocal prodigy that Henley is, he had an equal talent in that which Henley lacked and he did not have a BAD vocal. Together they were incomparable. When it came to lyrics, Frey was the spark that ignited the fire that Henley kindled. But it was Glenn who arranged the songs and was probably because of that, the force that caused the band to be known for all the harmonies they became known for.

Mike, I am afraid I have to take issue with your comments about Frey. 'Composition and MARKETING'? Do you think that is all he is? A clever businessman?

Regarding your comments on Frey's vocals, in my opinion Frey IS the 'vocal prodigy' that Henley is. Just because his singing is smoother doesn't lessen his ability. He is capable of singing with the same depth and passion as Henley. You say 'he did not have a BAD vocal'. That is damning with faint praise in its essence. I don't expect you or anyone else to think Frey's voice is as good as I do, but please, let's be fair to the man.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

The thing about this is that what makes a good singer is so subjective. I'm sure there are some criteria out there somewhere to help us judge what makes someone 'technically' a good singer. I know this much - Don Henley, Glenn Frey, and Don Felder are all much better singers than I am. How do I know this - only because my ears tell me. Most of us just know whether someone can sing or not without having to go through a lot of analytical evaluation.

But, when you have 5 or 10 people that the majority of people would agree are good singers, how do you rate them then? What makes one of them better than the others? As I said before, there are probably some technical vocal factors that can be used to judge this, but to a large degree, it is mostly subjective. Each of us have our own reasons for liking one singer better than another. I'm one of those that absolutely loves to hear both Don Henley and Glenn Frey sing, but if forced to chose one to listen to over the other, I prefer Glenn's voice. Why? For me, Glenn's voice is more versatile - for example, listen to How Long and What Do I Do With My Heart. For many people who don't know the difference, they would never guess that it is the same person singing those two songs. I also love the more mellow, vulnerable quality of Glenn's voice. I could just listen to it for hours on end whereas I prefer taking Henley in smaller doses. Now, again - this is just me, and I am in no way dissing Henley when I say this - as I said before, I LOVE his voice. I also know that there are others for who the exact opposite is true. They would say what makes Henley's voice so special is because most all of his songs are so uniquely and unmistakenly Henley and that they can listen to him for hours on end. So to me, who is the better singer all comes down to personal preference, plain and simple.

ETA: And for the record, since this is Felder's thread, let me include him here. I am sure that there are some folks out there that believe Felder is just as strong of a vocalist as Henley or Frey. If that's how they feel, then I certainly respect their opinion without agreeing with it.

[bernie's bender]

Having read the book. it is the book you write when you are at a crossroads in your life and feel lost and alone and stuck.

It brings gladness that the others have not (to date) said too much about Don's book, talking about those things would diminish them in the same way that folks talk about their divorces in catty and petty ways.

Don't have a favorite Eagle... love their music though and it brought me a great deal of happiness and solace over the years.

Don's perspective is just that... he isn't omniscient and there are some parts that any of us can read and say... hmmm.

When Bernie, who arguably dealt Don some very favorable cards at no personal gain (beyond true friendship and love) was jettisoned... Don did nothing. Randy, is the same case. Granted, there are personalities involved and in reading that section, reasonable people could conclude... maybe there was nothing to be said or done.. they were all adults making adult decisions.

Don's subsequent turn in the 'exit' seat finds him disappointed in Joe and Timmy even though they did nothing different than Don had done earlier.

The irony is that when Bernie and Randy reuinite with Don... B&R greet Don with open arms even though they could be perceived as the aggrieved.

Don has a long history of leaving and not keeping up and staying in touch except when it is to his benefit. His parents, brother, wife etc etc... he had a life of the luxury of always being the one who leaves. The one time he gets left... we end up with a book.

He is kind of the poster child for the me generation. The theme is repeated time and again in the book (unwittingly?)

The Eagles music is just a treasure. The politics and inner workings of a band are never as beautiful. Don's frequent comments about how well other bands get along (like Chicago) are hilariously myopic and as uninformed as the casual fan (and this from Jimmy Pankow's friend!)

Bands are complicated animals. Great bands filled with great talent will have an equal measure of other challenges in the same measure... Ask Stan Lynch!

Having played in bands for 30 plus years... it is always hard and complicated and all bands 'break up'... it is just the nature of it... for Don to have had such a long run with such a great band... it is good that he tipped his hat at the hall of fame induction to Glenn and Don...

[MikeA]

Gosh FreyPower....I wasn't trying to run down Glenn as a musician. Both Glenn and Don have extreme vocal ranges. Their talents compliment each others so well that the sum of the parts is greater than the individual talent each has.

I'll probably get into deeper water here without intending to. Seems like I did that with the other post without intending to offend anyone. I've always thought it sort of ironic that Don Henley had a bent more toward "country" than did Glenn but that Don's voice seemed to me more suited to Rock...you know...sort of gravely without losing any of that range. Glenn on the other hand, seemed to me to have more of a Rock/Detroit background and trend but had a voice more suited to country. Again, that is just observation and thusly, opinion.

I can't help my bias toward Don when it comes to vocals. I do think he has a voice that is amazing. Neither can I change the bias toward Glenn when it comes to arranging music. Do ALL I think Glenn was is a smart business man? HELL NO. But he did have a way of "arranging" the business end of the Eagles in the early years and I'm quite sure throughout the history of the Eagles than did anyone else, especially before Azoff....and if the truth could be known, I expect that Glenn is very much still in control of the business end of the Eagles.

At any rate, the intent was to point out that Glenn and Don together really were the heart and soul of the musical success of the Eagles. Their abilities equally complimented the twosome's success in songwriting, arranging and performing. I was NOT trying to say that one of them was better than the other.

I wonder though, if you went back through the entire Eagles discography and listed out the songs Glenn carried vocally and those that Don carried vocally, and then looked at the popularity of each of those songs, I wonder who would have the most?

[sodascouts]

BB, some very insightful comments about Felder's book - I hadn't thought of it quite like that before.

Mike - don't worry about offending - you're too nice of a guy for to offend anyone. As Dreamer says, it's all subjective. I prefer Glenn's voice, but I understand not everyone does. Plus, I get your original intent as well.

As far as who had the most lead vocals that were hits, I think Dreamer did a list of that one time - am I right, Dreamer?