Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

[AlreadyGone95]

For me, personally, LITFL is their epic song. It's the one I can remember being blown away by as a young kid. The opening guitar riff got me hooked, and I've stayed hooked on that song. With HC, I loved the beginning, but I'd be sad when Don sang "but you can never leave" because I'd think "crap.. here come the guitars" . It wasn't until I was almost a teenager that I began to love and enjoy the guitar part of HC.

I think that Felder made them a bit better, but it was adding Joe Walsh that really took things from successful to mega - successful. Joe not only brought talents as a guitarist, but as a songwriter and vocalist. He also already had an established career and fanbase. His fun, kind of crazy onstage persona, I'm sure also helped bring the crowds. Felder was a no-name struggling musician playing for Crosby and Nash. He brought talent as a guitarist and maybe as a songwriter, but certainly nothing like the talents and "perks" Joe Walsh brought.

As for songwriting and who gets credit, I'm not sure. Going back to LITFL, Joe gets a songwriting credit for the riff, even though it was Glenn who saw the potential for it to be part of a huge song. In fact,isn't Joe's name listed first on the credits?(Someone correct me if I'm wrong). I've always been a bit iffy on who gets credit for helping to write a song.

I've only been a mega-fan for about 3 months now, and I'm already tired of reading about "Don Felder and his amazing song, Hotel California, which he pratically wrote by himself". I'm glad that I didn't read his book prior to watching the documentary or checking into the band more. I might be on the other side of the debate.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

We've had this discussion on other threads about the importance of HC to the Eagles catalog. It's a given it's an iconic song and perhaps the song they are most known by when it comes to casual fans or even non-fans. There are a lot of people who dislike the Eagles based purely on that song, which is a sure sign of an iconic song. However, it's not their only claim to fame and their top selling album doesn't have HC on it (although I'm sure HC influenzed its sales). For myself, I have never liked the song, and as much as I was anticipating this album due to the addition of Joe, if it hadn't been for NKIT, I would have likely stopped being an Eagles fan. HC is about a place and time that most people could not relate to. As far as I can tell, those who wanted to be able to relate to it liked it, those of us who were quite happy where we were/are did not. It didn't help that it's a six minute song that was played twice an hour and so I eagerly anticipated the time when it would stop playing on the radio, and I felt that way long before I ever knew who wrote it and the drama that has unfolded because of it. I enjoy it live, and watching Joe play the guitar on it is beyond amazing. However, I'd be happy if it disappeared from the setlist altogether.

"Anyone could have filled in" is speculation and is open to interpretation. I've listened to On The Border many many times and there is nothing on there that requires the talents of someone like Felder. In fact, I think it's insulting to Felder's talent to say that there is. The man has made some astonishingly poor choices, in my opinion, when it comes to some of his personal interactions and decisions, but there is no denying his talent, and it is not showcased on On The Border to its full potential.

Felder would not have accepted a negotiation or a lower rate. If he'd been willing to accept less, he'd have never been fired. After he got fired and realized he'd gone too far, perhaps he would have accepted less, but by then it was far too late. Sometimes, when you make your own bed, you have to actually lie in it. It is my opinion that HFO was Felder's second chance at remaining an Eagle. In addition, any chance that they'd ever bury the hatchet and move forward even for a historical tour was shot to death when Felder litigated, then came out with the Book of Hate referenced in this thread title. Since he continues to litigate, it seems pretty obvious where his priorities are, and regardless of the pap he seems to get the media and some fans to swallow about just wanting to play with them again, he's proven, over and over, that it's not what he really wants. He's said over and over that music isn't about the money, yet everything he's done since 1995 when it comes to the Eagles has been about the money. Yet fans buy it time and time again. Frankly, I'm shocked he's not a politician.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Since posting earlier, I've realised I forgot an important contributor to their success from On the Border onwards - Irving Azoff - and I'm not being sarcastic. It seems that he was the one who suggested Szymczyk and also who went to fight for them when it came to the financial deals that got the money to the band, not just their record company or management.

None of this is in Felder's book because most of it was in place before he joined.

Amazingly enough, UTW, Azoff is very underrated when it comes to the success of the Eagles post-Desperado. The man obviously knows what he's doing and did at the time.

[chaim]

I have a minor point to add. The HC intro is legendary, and people mention it often. Don even managed to mention it several times in his book. BUT, I wonder how much the impact of the intro has to do with what comes later - lyrics and all. If a lousier song would follow, would the intro sound as amazing? When we know that a fascinating tale about "Hotel California" is about to start, of course we go "YEAH!" when we hear the intro.

I'm not saying that the intro alone doesn't do the trick. Maybe it does. Just food for thought.

[AlreadyGone95]

I have a minor point to add. The HC intro is legendary, and people mention it often. Don even managed to mention it several times in his book. BUT, I wonder how much the inpact of the intro has to do with what comes later - lyrics and all. If a lousier song would follow, would the intro sound as amazing? When we know that a fascinating tale about "Hotel California" is about to start, of course we go "YEAH!" when we hear the intro.

I'm not saying that the intro alone doesn't do the trick. Maybe it does. Just food for thought.

Chaim, I agree with you 100%. When we hear the intro, we know what's coming and we get excited, or at least I do.

The way I see HC: the intro is the appetizer. It provides us with a taste of what's to come. The middle part with the lyrical journey is the main course of an excellent meal. Then the outro/guitar part is the homemade dessert at the end, a great way to end the song and a meal. (I hope that my analogy makes sense.)

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I have a minor point to add. The HC intro is legendary, and people mention it often. Don even managed to mention it several times in his book. BUT, I wonder how much the inpact of the intro has to do with what comes later - lyrics and all. If a lousier song would follow, would the intro sound as amazing? When we know that a fascinating tale about "Hotel California" is about to start, of course we go "YEAH!" when we hear the intro.

I'm not saying that the intro alone doesn't do the trick. Maybe it does. Just food for thought.

If you read what Glenn had to say in the songwriters session, he mentioned intros. He wasn't talking about HC, just in general, and he mentioned how important they are. They set the mood, as he said. He said he felt the intro to In The Air Tonight was the best intro.

Obviously an intro doesn't make a song great, but it sure sets it up to be great.

[chaim]

Chaim, I agree with you 100%. When we hear the intro, we know what's coming and we get excited, or at least I do.

The way I see HC: the intro is the appetizer. It provides us with a taste of what's to come. The middle part with the lyrical journey is the main course of an excellent meal. Then the outro/guitar part is the homade dessert at the end, a great way to end the song and a meal. (I hope that my analogy makes sense.)

It makes perfect sense to me. I've never thought about it, but you're right IMO - in that it's a three part thing.

[chaim]

If you read what Glenn had to say in the songwriters session, he mentioned intros. He wasn't talking about HC, just in general, and he mentioned how important they are. They set the mood, as he said. He said he felt the intro to In The Air Tonight was the best intro.

Obviously an intro doesn't make a song great, but it sure sets it up to be great.

One of the Bee Gees brothers said the same thing in some documentary. Maurice or Barry. Gee, I wish I could see at least a transcription of what Glenn has said in the songwriters session. I think someone told me in some thread (at some point) where I can see it, but I don't remember anymore!

As far as intros go, Glenn's Desperado intro is probably their best intro ever. I remember being amazed by it even when I had no idea who it was.

[AlreadyGone95]

One of the Bee Gees brothers said the same thing in some documentary. Maurice or Barry. Gee, I wish I could see at least a transcription of what Glenn has said in the songwriters session. I think someone told me in some thread (at some point) where I can see it, but I don't remember anymore!

As far as intros go, Glenn's Desperado intro is probably their best intro ever. I remember being amazed by it even when I had no idea who it was.

Here's the thread where you can read more about it:
https://eaglesonlinecentral.com/foru...ead.php?t=3279

For intros, HC, Desperado, LITFL, Already Gone, and One of These Nights I think are the ones people can recognize and know what song it is.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

One of the Bee Gees brothers said the same thing in some documentary. Maurice or Barry. Gee, I wish I could see at least a transcription of what Glenn has said in the songwriters session. I think someone told me in some thread (at some point) where I can see it, but I don't remember anymore!

As far as intros go, Glenn's Desperado intro is probably their best intro ever. I remember being amazed by it even when I had no idea who it was.

Here is a link to it. It's not exact quotes, just a transcribing of notes. I believe HH and Soda started it here on page 5:
https://eaglesonlinecentral.com/foru...?t=3279&page=5