Good Music or Bad Music

[TimothyBFan]

I can see I'm getting nowhere here and it's hopeless!! I refuse to continue on knocking my head against the wall. Personally, I feel that you seem to think your opinion is the only opinion that can be correct. And some of what you are now arguing against and calling people's opinions are not opinion, but fact. I'm all about everyone having opinions but I also think there's opinion and then there's just being contradictory.

I think you are a very nice, smart young man, especially when it comes to the music YOU love and I enjoy talking with you about music. I know I will never know as much as you do about guitars and such. I've learned a lot from you. That being said, and please do not take this the wrong way.... I seldom pull out the "age" card (why would I want to remind everyone how old I am--48 for the record) but seriously, Austin, many of us here LIVED through that music when it was all new. I loved it then and also loved the bubble gum, glam, some disco (yikes), rap (when it was new -Sugarhill gang, etc). I just think that makes me a little wiser about some of it. Without those groups, there wouldn't be any new music and I know for a fact that a lot of the new groups will give credit where it is due. I think it's a testament to those new groups when the "oldies" will get on a stage and perform with some of those group.... Led Zeppelin with the Foo Fighters and the Black Crows or ZZ Top with Nickelback, etc.... If those new groups are good enough for the like of Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and Billy Gibbons, they are good enough for me.

[Topkat]

I don't agree, early to mid 70's music was nothing like 60's music. The 60's was the British invasion, pop rock, & the Motown sound. The 70's was very hard, blues rock. They didn't really re-do the 60's pop; it was totally different.
The 70's blues guitarist were innovators, putting this music front & center in places like Woodstock. Also what about the infamous "drum solos" of the early 70's. i don't think anyone can argue the impact of Santana's "Soul Sacrifice" with drummer Mike Shreave just about stealing the entire show. One of the most famous drum solos ever!

[WalshFan88]

I can see I'm getting nowhere here and it's hopeless!! I refuse to continue on knocking my head against the wall. Personally, I feel that you seem to think your opinion is the only opinion that can be correct. And some of what you are now arguing against and calling people's opinions are not opinion, but fact. I'm all about everyone having opinions but I also think there's opinion and then there's just being contradictory.

I think you are a very nice, smart young man, especially when it comes to the music YOU love and I enjoy talking with you about music. I know I will never know as much as you do about guitars and such. I've learned a lot from you. That being said, and please do not take this the wrong way.... I seldom pull out the "age" card (why would I want to remind everyone how old I am--48 for the record) but seriously, Austin, many of us here LIVED through that music when it was all new. I loved it then and also loved the bubble gum, glam, some disco (yikes), rap (when it was new -Sugarhill gang, etc). I just think that makes me a little wiser about some of it. Without those groups, there wouldn't be any new music and I know for a fact that a lot of the new groups will give credit where it is due. I think it's a testament to those new groups when the "oldies" will get on a stage and perform with some of those group.... Led Zeppelin with the Foo Fighters and the Black Crows or ZZ Top with Nickelback, etc.... If those new groups are good enough for the like of Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and Billy Gibbons, they are good enough for me.

It's not that at all. It's just that I stand up for what I believe in. All opinions are valid but I'm not going to have someone tell me I'm wrong for what I believe in or try to shove unwanted stuff down my throat, either. I'm NOT wrong, period for saying these bands don't have the same creativity as the older ones. I ALSO agree Nirvana changed music, that's not what I'm calling an opinion. My comment to Shadowman was that he said I was wrong for saying those bands weren't creative when I CAN'T be wrong because it's all subjective therefore no one is wrong. There is no fact to that I'm afraid. I'm all for debating except when ganged up on. I've also shared plenty of facts as well in this thread and in my video which I am quite proud of, FWIW. When it comes to music - I know my stuff plain and simple. I've been in multiple professional bands (3) and I've been a music lover for a very long time and therefore am certainly entitled to my beliefs through my extended experience both as a professional (paid) musician and as a music lover both. Some here (actually MOST here) only have one side of that. I see it from both angles - as I state in my video. You may have seen it start and been around longer, but I also am an experienced musician and can evaluate these songs in a way normal everyday people cannot and therefore have another side to just "do I like this song or not" in that I can microscopically categorize, evaluate, and criticize them as for what they are. I call it as I see it I'm afraid and I'm not afraid to do so. It walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... It's a friggin' duck fer christ sakes.

That said, I'm done and spoke my peace unless anyone responds with something I feel I need to specifically address in which I will feel most free to do so. I highly recommend this part of the thread be created into it's own thread for reference sake, including my informative video but I likely won't be adding anything. I've shared my expertise and knowledge here as have you and others. I think it is what it is. I know what I like and I know what I have a right to say and believe in and I am right, AFAIC.

And with that, I bid you all adieu.

[Freypower]

I sort of get where Austin is coming from with Nirvana. I think Nevermind is overrated. To me it's just another rock album; it is nothing special. But it WAS special to the millions who bought it & formed bands as a result, just as the Velvet Underground was influential, or so some critics insist (I have never to this day heard a Velvet Underground song).

I don't agree that all 'hits' are great simply because they are hits. Muskrat Love is a perfect example. Austin likes Guns'n'Roses. I don't (sorry). They had hits. They did precisely nothing for me. Some of my favourite artists had hits with inferior songs; Elton John's Nikita, for instance. I cannot listen to that. It was a big hit. Similarly there are far better songs in Glenn Frey's catalogue than The Heat Is On, in my opinion.

The Deep Tracks thing is where I really take issue. Austin, if you love Hotel California so much surely you love the 'deep tracks' on that like VOL, PMIAR etc? You even like Out Of Control, which is a deep track on Desperado, an album you dislike.

A few examples dear to my heart: There is more to Led Zeppelin IV than Stairway To Heaven. There is more to Band On The Run than the title track. There is more to the self-titled Dire Straits album than Sultans Of Swing and more to Brothers In Arms than Money For Nothing. There is more to Rumours than Go Your Own Way.....

The only more recent bands I ever found that I liked were REM and Oasis, and neither of them really lived up to their promise, but I still hope, even at 51, to find some other act that can still excite me. I just can't close off my whole mind to the possibility. It's very difficult, and it's hard to know where to start, but I'm sure I can do it. I hear a lot about Kings of Leon & Mumford & Sons who might fit into what I am looking for, and also Ryan Adams, a singer-songwriter.

And incidentally Austin, you apparently only listen to bands, not solo artists. Don't you even listen to Neil Young? I think even you would enjoy the rockier songs on Rust Never Sleeps & Ragged Glory. You are missing out on some of the great music, in my opinion. Don't worry - I am not suggesting you try Bob Dylan!

Edit: I have just read your last post. Other people have as much right to express their opinions as you do and other people may also believe they are just as 'right' as you are. When you say that only you can evaluate these songs in the way you can because of your musical knowledge, that is dangerously close to saying that non-musicians have no right at all to express any opinions on the music they love.

[Shadowland07]

Sorry but just because you play guitar and were in a few bands doesn't entitle you to anything. I also play guitar and have been in a few bands but that doesn't matter. You're no more special than anyone else here on The Border.

[WalshFan88]

I sort of get where Austin is coming from with Nirvana. I think Nevermind is overrated. To me it's just another rock album; it is nothing special. But it WAS special to the millions who bought it & formed bands as a result, just as the Velvet Underground was influential, or so some critics insist (I have never to this day heard a Velvet Underground song).

I don't agree that all 'hits' are great simply because they are hits. Muskrat Love is a perfect example. Austin likes Guns'n'Roses. I don't (sorry). They had hits. They did precisely nothing for me. Some of my favourite artists had hits with inferior songs; Elton John's Nikita, for instance. I cannot listen to that. It was a big hit. Similarly there are far better songs in Glenn Frey's catalogue than The Heat Is On, in my opinion.

The Deep Tracks thing is where I really take issue. Austin, if you love Hotel California so much surely you love the 'deep tracks' on that like VOL, PMIAR etc? You even like Out Of Control, which is a deep track on Desperado, an album you dislike.

A few examples dear to my heart: There is more to Led Zeppelin IV than Stairway To Heaven. There is more to Band On The Run than the title track. There is more to the self-titled Dire Straits album than Sultans Of Swing and more to Brothers In Arms than Money For Nothing. There is more to Rumours than Go Your Own Way.....

The only more recent bands I ever found that I liked were REM and Oasis, and neither of them really lived up to their promise, but I still hope, even at 51, to find some other act that can still excite me. I just can't close off my whole mind to the possibility. It's very difficult, and it's hard to know where to start, but I'm sure I can do it. I hear a lot about Kings of Leon & Mumford & Sons who might fit into what I am looking for, and also Ryan Adams, a singer-songwriter.

And incidentally Austin, you apparently only listen to bands, not solo artists. Don't you even listen to Neil Young? I think even you would enjoy the rockier songs on Rust Never Sleeps & Ragged Glory. You are missing out on some of the great music, in my opinion. Don't worry - I am not suggesting you try Bob Dylan!

Edit: I have just read your last post. Other people have as much right to express their opinions as you do and other people may also believe they are just as 'right' as you are.

I do love some deep tracks by the Eagles. Victim Of Love from HC is one of my favorites. It's also possible what I define as deep tracks are different than other's definitions. I love Victim Of Love from HC and James Dean from OTB and such even from other bands. Mama Kin from Aerosmith as an example.

I also listen to solo artists, it's just that I failed to mention them. I love Don Henley's solo music especially but also Joe's. I also like James Taylor and some other ones as well. I like Neil Young's more rockier stuff (Rockin' In The Free World, Ohio, Cinnamon Girl, etc) but not the folkier stuff (Old Man, Heart Of Gold, Southern Man, etc)

Obviously they definitely do and as I said all opinions are valid - but I feel like I'm being told I'm wrong for liking what I like and disliking what I dislike. I have nothing against any of the other opinions and I think they are fine and they certainly are open to think what I want. Just don't try to shove your religion down my throat and I won't try to shove mine down yours. Easy peasy, right?!

[WalshFan88]

Sorry but just because you play guitar and were in a few bands doesn't entitle you to anything. I also play guitar and have been in a few bands but that doesn't matter. You're no more special than anyone else here on The Border.

I didn't say I was special, did I? No, I just said I had some musical experience to be able to dissect songs musically.

[WalshFan88]

When you say that only you can evaluate these songs in the way you can because of your musical knowledge, that is dangerously close to saying that non-musicians have no right at all to express any opinions on the music they love.

Not at all I'm afraid. I'm just saying I see things in a different light than 99 percent of music lovers. All opinions are valid. I may not agree with them - but they are valid nonetheless. I said nothing about rights. I just said I had an extra component to my opinion that I share that may be foreign to others.

[Freypower]

I
Obviously they definitely do and as I said all opinions are valid - but I feel like I'm being told I'm wrong for liking what I like and disliking what I dislike. I have nothing against any of the other opinions and I think they are fine and they certainly are open to think what I want. Just don't try to shove your religion down my throat and I won't try to shove mine down yours. Easy peasy, right?!

Nobody is a) telling you you are wrong; b) 'shoving their religion down your throat'. All they are doing is attempting to contribute to the discussion in the same way that you are.

[WalshFan88]

Nobody is a) telling you you are wrong; b) 'shoving their religion down your throat'. All they are doing is attempting to contribute to the discussion in the same way that you are.

Read back a few pages. I can think of two posts off the top off my head that tell me I am wrong..... Not that I care or it will somehow effect my belief.

I'm not saying anything about me having more rights - not at all. I'm saying ANY MUSICIAN will have more abilities to understand and dissect the composition of MUSIC better than your average person. Me, Joe, or Moe. Musicians study music, that's what they do. They learn how they make music and therefore can reverse engineer it so to speak. Where as most people's opinions are 'I like this.....I don't like this.... This sucks.... This is the best thing ever....etc'. Where as mine or another musician's may be 'This is well composed. This has great songwriting and lyricism. This has a great time and beat to it. This has no creativity. This is very creative. This is out of tune.'.