Felder Interviews and promotions

[sodascouts]

I've always found the practices surrounding song-writing credits as they relate to guitar solos and riffs to be a bit baffling. Every once in a while there are these subjects that get analyzed from a legal perspective and somewhere between the subject's domain (music, in this case) and the legal domain, something seems to get lost. I've had similar feelings regarding some of the legalities surrounding software licensing.

So, for example, you [reader] and I could start a band. We call it the Beagles, since we plan to cover a lot of Beatles and Eagles songs (of course!). But, we're also going to write some stuff of our own. To begin our songwriting effort, I present a verse and chorus based on incredibly basic chord progressions (something like G - C - D). The bass plays the roots of the chords, the drummer uses cliche beats, I scribble down some lyrics about being taken advantage of by unscrupulous women and voila, we have our first single which we call Cardio Kleptomania.

Sadly, it's a bit lacking, so we extend the verse chord progression two thirds through the song and ask you to record a guitar solo, which you do enthusiastically (you're an awesome bandmate).

In true Justin Bieber, Never-Say-Never fashion, our first song skyrockets to the top of itunes and overnight we get 40,000,000 twitter followers (move over Lady Gaga), crashing twitter in the process. A bit to my dismay, as we start to hear feedback about the song and come to realize that its strength is neither my I-IV-V chord progression (who'd a thunk?) nor the picture painted by the lyrics describing my history of dysfunctional relationships (from my youth, of course...), but rather, everybody loooooves the guitar solo.

Yes, Guitar World publishes an emergency issue just to declare your solo the best ever written. Rolling Stone Magazine puts us on the cover (I buy five copies ... for my mother). In a rare act of bipartisanship, Congress passes a resolution (now that's an accomplishment...) declaring the day on which Cardio Kleptomania was released as "National Guitar Solo Day." In episodes somewhat reminiscent of Ewan McGregor's near exit from the world of acting, Eddie Van Halen, Jimmy Page, Joe Walsh, Don Felder and a whole host of other notable guitarists declare that they are no longer going to play guitar, each explaining him or herself with the same rhetorical question: "What's the point?"

And here's the kicker... You don't even have any writing credits on the song!

Of course, you could have writing credit if band agreed to it. But much of the conventional wisdom on the subject is that just adding a guitar solo is not sufficient enough of a contribution to be credited. I can understand a fill here and there, but a guitar solo? Really?!

Anyway, here is an interesting article on the subject.

LOL Turf!! I get the picture!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Turf, I loved your theoretical situation!!!

I have read or heard in interviews that in general, back in the day, bands or groups of people that write together would all agree ahead of time on how the songwriting credits would go. I have a hard time believing that happened every time.

There are people on this board that have said that Felder's intro to HC makes the song and since he wrote the chord progressions and started it, he has songwriting credits. However, he wrote the bass intro to One of These Nights and I'm sorry, that intro is critical to the success of the song in my opinion. It's my favorite Eagles song and I doubt it would be without that intro. He doesn't have songwriting credits on the song, but can anyone imagine that song without that intro? There's a 'rule' when writing fiction. You need to cast the line, dangle the bait, get the fish, and set the hook in the first 250 words. In other words, get the reader hooked on the book. In my opinion, that's exactly what that intro does. Unlike some other great intros other bands have come up with, the rest of song doesn't at all disappoint, it gets better and better.

[Turf]

My understanding of the writing of the outro solo on HC has evolved over time. Felder (mostly) seems to add tidbits here and there in all the different interviews.

For the purposes of discussion, I'm going to divide up the solo into three different sections.

(A) Felder and Walsh trade licks
(B) Both play a short run in harmony
(C) Felder and Walsh very systematically play arpeggios (notes of a chord played separately) in harmony

Felder's original demo tape included a two-guitar outro solo; he specifically wrote it for himself and Joe. However, I'm guessing that the demo outro probably only included section (A). Felder says his solo parts were on the demo [1] (albeit, the song was in a different key). Furthermore, he says Joe came up with some licks which sounds consistent (basically) with Joe explaining that Felder and he each wrote their own part of (A) [2].

Based on The History of the Eagles and this interview [3], Felder explains that Joe came up with the idea of (C), describing it verbally as something like:

Da-da-da Da-da-da Da-da-da...

Felder took the idea and translated it into guitar parts for he and Walsh to play. If you look at what's actually being played, both guitars are playing different notes from the same arpeggio, at different positions on the guitar. The chords used in the arpeggio are the same (or effectively the same) as the underlying chord from the chord progression, which Felder also wrote.

With situations like section (C), it's easy to see how questions of "who wrote what" can get a bit tricky...

Some sources:

[1] Guitar World - Don Felder talks about Hotel California. The same or equivalent interview I believe was published in the magazine itself much earlier.

[2] Joe Walsh Interview

[3] Don Felder Interview

[VAisForEagleLovers]

There was also a recent interview by Joe that those of us here in the States can't hear where he discusses how it was written. The interview with Felder was about a week or so later and he also went into detail and cleared up some unclear accounts he'd given earlier. Perhaps he's realized that not all of us speak 'songwriter-speak' and that he needs to spell it out!

[Turf]

There was also a recent interview by Joe that those of us here in the States can't hear where he discusses how it was written. The interview with Felder was about a week or so later and he also went into detail and cleared up some unclear accounts he'd given earlier. Perhaps he's realized that not all of us speak 'songwriter-speak' and that he needs to spell it out!

That's interesting. Do you have any more details about that interview? Hopefully, we'll get to hear or read it at some point.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Not a lot, no. There are comments somewhere near the end of the Sundance thread I think. Perhaps also the Eagles in the Press thread. Several of our members made comments and probably not all in the same place.

[sodascouts]

We try to keep topics organized here but it's not always easy!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I know! They were in London for the Sundance festival and talked about the movie and a lot of other things, so it's hard to know where to put something!

[chaim]

Turf 's points are all valid. But the sad truth seems to be that even if you start banging G, C and D chords and a song evolves out of that, you're credited because you "initiated" the song, even if it's your only contribution. However, if the same song is born in another way: Someone else writes a melody first, and then you add those G, C and D chords, you probably are not credited, because generally chord progressions aren't considered "copyrightable". At least here in Finland adding chords to an already existing melody doesn't officially mean a thing when it comes to credits. In my opinion this is absurd, because what makes a listener feel a certain way is usually the way the melody and chords work together.

To add to the confusion, Glen Buxton (the lead guitarist in the original Alice Cooper group) came up with the School's Out riff that opens the song and is the basis of the verses. Here:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUYfaHJFZiw[/ame]

The rest of the song was basically written by Michael Bruce (rhythm guitarist, who came up with the chords) and Alice (who came up with the lyrics and most likely the vocal melody). Now, Buxton was credited; it was his riff and it started the songwriting process. However, in his book Michael Bruce hints that only he and Alice should've been credited, not even Buxton, who wrote the riff. He says something like "the guys didn't know anything about song publishing". What do you think? Should Buxton not have been credited for writing that riff? A riff that constantly pops up in "best riffs" polls.

Another interesting case is A Whiter Shade Of Pale. The song had already been copyrighted when Matthew Fisher joined the band and came up with that organ theme. Brooker wanted something Bach-like there, but it was Fisher who came up with it. Although almost all the licks are from a Bach piece (not Air on a G string, but a piece which is also called "Sleepers awake"), he sued Brooker and co 42 years after the song was recorded and demanded half of the composer credit.

About Hotel California...Those chords are not unique, although Don F seems to think they are. In his book he also says "...with its sudden shift from a minor key to the dominant major for the chorus". 1) There's really no "shift" or modulation, just a slight hint of the relative major key, 2) the dominant key is nowhere to be heard, 3) the "shift" is perfectly logical and common; nothing "sudden" about it. The relative key is the most ordinary use of modulation. For those who know about "chord degrees" (not sure how to say it in English), all it does is move from V to VI, which has been a very ordinary movement probably since the renaissance era.
By the "unusual chromatic progression" Don means that you are able to play a descending chromatic line on top of the chords. That's how he plays the main acoustic part and later one of the harmony guitars does that in the verses. But again, that is very common. One doesn't look further than at "Wasted time" on the same album. Listen to the "You never thought you'd be alone..." part. The bassline (Glenn's left hand on the piano) descends chromatically. It's exactly the same movement. So Glenn came up with an "unusual chromatic progression" too. And this time I'm not even going to talk about how many songs had already had that basic HC chords progression...One example, starts at 1:44:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIIxeKPqkUk[/ame]

So, Don didn't do anything unusual with the chords, but his "reggae" rhythm, arrangement, and later Don H's and Glenn's vocal melodies and lyrics made the song unique.

By the way, if you want to hear somewhat unique chord progressions and "sudden shifts", listen to stuff like this, Don:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i88hta7AJqQ[/ame]

Those chord progressions probably don't sound as unique as they are, though.

[chaim]

Turf, I loved your theoretical situation!!!

I have read or heard in interviews that in general, back in the day, bands or groups of people that write together would all agree ahead of time on how the songwriting credits would go. I have a hard time believing that happened every time.

There are people on this board that have said that Felder's intro to HC makes the song and since he wrote the chord progressions and started it, he has songwriting credits. However, he wrote the bass intro to One of These Nights and I'm sorry, that intro is critical to the success of the song in my opinion. It's my favorite Eagles song and I doubt it would be without that intro. He doesn't have songwriting credits on the song, but can anyone imagine that song without that intro? There's a 'rule' when writing fiction. You need to cast the line, dangle the bait, get the fish, and set the hook in the first 250 words. In other words, get the reader hooked on the book. In my opinion, that's exactly what that intro does. Unlike some other great intros other bands have come up with, the rest of song doesn't at all disappoint, it gets better and better.

Yes, a good point. But I think it's also the case of drawing the line somewhere. Otherwise everyone would be fighting for a credit, because they added "something". That intro is a significant contribution, that's for sure, but I think it's considered part of the arrangement more than part of the composition. Think about it this way: If you did a totally different version of the song, which bits could you leave out? Certainly not the melody and the lyrics, and most likely the (possible) new chords would in some way be based on the original ones. But the song could probably exist without the intro, if the arrangement was totally different. Also, the intro bassline was based on an already existing verse chord progression, so I can understand if they considered it part of the arrangement. It's certainly a huge part of the arrangement. Actually the intro is a fine collaboration between Don F and Glenn, even if Don doesn't like to scream about it. Don wrote the bassline, and Glenn came up with those harmonized guitars.