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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
thelastresort
Further to Funk 50's example above, I believe Black Sabbath (at least in the early days) always used to credit every song to all four members as they believed that nothing would be the same if one of them wasn't there. In reality it was usually guitarist Tony Iommi who came up with the music, and bassist Geezer Butler who came up with the lyrics.
Ozzy came up with vocal melodies, which are part of the "music". Take Paranoid, for example. IMO there are two memorable things musically - Tony's intro riff and Ozzy's syncopated verse melody.
Bill Ward, as far as I know, was the only one who didn't contribute to the actual composing and lyric writing.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
UndertheWire
When we've discussed credits elsewhere, I think it was said that the legal copyright of a song is just the lyrics and vocal melody and the rest is just the arrangement. Indeed, when you ask someone about a song, they will usually just sing the lyrics. Part 2 of the doc has a good example when a group of people are asked what they are looking forward to hearing and they sing the words "One of the nights...". No one sings the baseline and the song is quite recognisably without any of the instrumentation.
Further support to the idea that the OOTN bassline is just an arrangement comes from Felder's description. The bass was added to a song that had already been written. It changed the sound of the track but not the song.
However, it does seem that the band sometimes gives songwriting credits for the music (beyond vocal melody) or riffs and this seems to be when the song started with that music eg Witchy Woman, Hotel California, Victim of Love, Hotel California.
As I said the other day, I believe Felder wrote a lot of the lyrics of Visions as well as the music because it's more his style than Henley's.
I wonder what the copyright position is on instrumentals.
This post sums up how I understand it. I don't actually know how it goes officially, but all of this makes perfect sense and fits everything I've seen.
As for people being generous about songwriting credits...Sometimes people tend to give a credit for the tiniest thing and sometimes they wouldn't like to share the writing credit even if the other person wrote a huge part. Neil Young used a line by someone else ("It's better to burn out than it is to rust") in a song of his, and gave him a credit for that.
On the other hand, there are Beatles lyrics that were written with various people (including non-members) suggesting lines that were used. It has been said that the line about Father McKenzie darning his socks in "Eleanor Rigby" came from Ringo, for example. But, if I remember correctly, later McCartney was reluctant to admit even John contributing anything. The official credit, of course, in those days was "Lennon/McCartney". But I think it says "Lennon/McCartney/Starkey" on "What goes on", so it's not that the "Lennon/McCartney" credit was set in stone whoever contributed.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
chaim
Ozzy came up with vocal melodies, which are part of the "music". Take Paranoid, for example. IMO there are two memorable things musically - Tony's intro riff and Ozzy's syncopated verse melody.
Bill Ward, as far as I know, was the only one who didn't contribute to the actual composing and lyric writing.
Indeed, Tony would usually pull out the riff and chord progressions and Ozzy would say things entirely spontaneously (and often nonsensical) to get a feel for the vocal, then usually him and Geezer would work through and create proper lyrics - I am tempted to believe however that Geezer played a huge part in Paranoid since Ozzy didn't actually know what paranoid meant :lol: In cases where the words came first and music second, I believe Geezer was usually the sole lyricist.
I think you could also argue to an extent Ward's drumming was an integral part of the music, ergo warranted his credits - look at the likes of Iron Man and War Pigs. His performance at Paris 1970 is still the best live drumming performance I've ever seen, he was going for it like a madman.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
thelastresort
Indeed, Tony would usually pull out the riff and chord progressions and Ozzy would say things entirely spontaneously (and often nonsensical) to get a feel for the vocal, then usually him and Geezer would work through and create proper lyrics - I am tempted to believe however that Geezer played a huge part in Paranoid since Ozzy didn't actually know what paranoid meant :lol: In cases where the words came first and music second, I believe Geezer was usually the sole lyricist.
I think you could also argue to an extent Ward's drumming was an integral part of the music, ergo warranted his credits - look at the likes of Iron Man and War Pigs. His performance at Paris 1970 is still the best live drumming performance I've ever seen, he was going for it like a madman.
Yeah, it's true you could say that. But on the other hand you could also say that it's not part of the songwriting. Both views can be argued. But IMO you couldn't possibly argue that Ozzy's melodies are not part of the songwriting. Yet in rock'n'roll lots of people don't seem to think that vocal melodies are part of the "music". I've talked about this before. For some reason for many rock fans "music" is guitar riffs and chord progressions - not vocal melodies.
They did a Black Sabbath album on "Classic albums". Was it Paranoid? Anyway, they played some early versions with Ozzy's initial vocal ideas - before Geezer wrote the actual lyrics. The final lyrics weren't there, but the melodies were. Personally I was surprised when I saw that show. I had always thought that Ozzy didn't write even vocal melodies.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
chaim
Yet in rock'n'roll lots of people don't seem to think that vocal melodies are part of the "music". I've talked about this before. For some reason for many rock fans "music" is guitar riffs and chord progressions - not vocal melodies.
They should try to write a good melody sometime - it's the most crucial part of the song, IMO. Sadly it seems to be a dying art.
I think that's why Glenn has become an educator on songwriting in recent years. He sees that it's gone into decline somewhat.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
In the discussion that UTW mentioned, there were various links to help support different interpretations of who gets credit. I can't search for it now, but I believe we ended the discussion with it possibly being different in each country (legally), and different with each group of songwriters. For instance there might be basic criteria of who gets credit, and some bands/songwriters may choose to expand it. For our guys, it seems to be whomever contributes to the chord progression, lyrics, and melody, and anything else is arrangement and harmonies. When you think about an artist doing a cover of a song, they may put their own spin on it, different arrangements, different keys, different intros, but they don't get partial writing credit for doing it.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
NightMistBlue
They should try to write a good melody sometime - it's the most crucial part of the song, IMO. Sadly it seems to be a dying art.
I think that's why Glenn has become an educator on songwriting in recent years. He sees that it's gone into decline somewhat.
I've heard about this before. Are there any video clips or web sites in the internet about this?
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
chaim
I've heard about this before. Are there any video clips or web sites in the internet about this?
In the Glenn Frey section of this site, there is a thread about Glenn speaking at New York University - that's a really good discussion, with a lot of detail provided on what Glenn said (thanks again, ladies!). Here's a little article about it: http://www.pollstar.com/news_article.aspx?ID=803359
There is also an audio interview on a songwriting web site. You have to join the site, but it's free. I can't remember the name of the site but I'm sure it's mentioned in the NYU thread.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
NightMistBlue
In the Glenn Frey section of this site, there is a thread about Glenn speaking at New York University - that's a really good discussion, with a lot of detail provided on what Glenn said (thanks again, ladies!). Here's a little article about it:
http://www.pollstar.com/news_article.aspx?ID=803359
There is also an audio interview on a songwriting web site. You have to join the site, but it's free. I can't remember the name of the site but I'm sure it's mentioned in the NYU thread.
Thanks!!
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chaim
Thanks!!
Try Art of the Song. I know accessing it through their Facebook page is something that can be done without joining, but paging back to the late spring/early summer of 2012 might be a bit much, but there's probably a link to their website and it can be searched on if the link isn't in the press and discussion about After Hours thread.
In the past few years, there have been tweets and references to Glenn teaching at NYU, a songwriting class. They are throughout Glenn's press thread. It's almost enough for me to want to take up an interest in songwriting, but alas, I think I'll stick with software since I've never been able to speak in rhyme.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
I've written rhyming poetry but trying to figure out a melody for it that's original... no dice. I did come up with an original melody I called "Black Keys" which I wrote on piano but I was self-aware enough to realize it was crap. I envy the talent of songwriters!
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Remember what Bob Seger told Glenn: your first songs WILL be bad, but keep on writing. The more you write, the more ideas will come to you.
Thank you, VA - it's Art of the Song I was trying to remember. Glenn's interview is here:
https://standingoproject.com/intervi...ombine=&page=2
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
I tried to write songs a few years ago. My teachers had always praised my writing and my way with words, but since I can't play any instrument, the lyrics were just words on a piece of paper. I quickly scratched out being a songwriter off of my potential occupations list. I also tried to just write, mostly short stories (I suck at writing poetry). Unfortunately, I got alot discouragement from both my classmates and my mom, so I scratched that off as well.
I guess that the old adage "practice makes perfect" will always be true. If you want to be good at something, you have to stick to it through thick and thin.
I envy those who have natural talent for writing. That's a talent that I think is becoming less and less popular.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
There are songwriters who don't play an instrument. Some people just use their voice, and others just know enough of an instrument to peck out some chords. There are people who "only" write lyrics, such as Bernie Taupin and Tim Rice, and are fabulously wealthy from doing so.
Jim Morrison couldn't play an instrument but heard songs fully formed in his mind. He would sing them to the other Doors and they would figure out the notes and chords.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
sodascouts
I've written rhyming poetry but trying to figure out a melody for it that's original... no dice. I did come up with an original melody I called "Black Keys" which I wrote on piano but I was self-aware enough to realize it was crap. I envy the talent of songwriters!
There are many "classic" singer/songwriter songs that are absolute crap as far as I'm concerned - songs whose greatness I will never understand. Graham Nash's "Our house" is one of them. Don't be too hard on yourself. Every heartfelt song has an audience - even if it's just one person.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
AlreadyGone95
I tried to write songs a few years ago. My teachers had always praised my writing and my way with words, but since I can't play any instrument, the lyrics were just words on a piece of paper. I quickly scratched out being a songwriter off of my potential occupations list. I also tried to just write, mostly short stories (I suck at writing poetry). Unfortunately, I got alot discouragement from both my classmates and my mom, so I scratched that off as well.
I guess that the old adage "practice makes perfect" will always be true. If you want to be good at something, you have to stick to it through thick and thin.
I envy those who have natural talent for writing. That's a talent that I think is becoming less and less popular.
I wish you hadn't.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
From the Ol'55 reference, I think Jackson is talking about Eagles song-writing for One of These Nights and Hotel California:
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JB: You know what’s great? It’s when your friends become your heroes. Like they’re already like—they kept growing and they kept like taking on more and more of the—they just challenged themselves and took on more and more terrain. I think that they you know grew musically as well as lyrically and you know they went—I was, just for the record, I was always sort of against them stopping writing with everybody else and sort of just doing their own songs. I mean I just sort of said, “You guys sing other people’s songs so well; why would you not avail yourself of these great songs? I mean, you did that great version of ‘Ol’ 55’ by Tom Waits.” And they just said, “No, we just want to write—
EA: Which Tom Waits hated—
JB: “We only want to write our own songs, and we just want to do our songs.” But it, you know, it was also—it was kind of an ambition. They knew that’s how you make money, as well. And if they were going to succeed, they were going to succeed with their own material. They demanded it of themselves, and the songs got really good. I thought the songs got—I mean, they’re so memorable and so—and they did continue to write with J. D. I think the time I sat down with them in their writing style, where everybody sits down and they’re like—it looks a lot like a poker game but it’s really, they’re sitting—I couldn’t keep up. I was just slow. I’m slow. I’m a slow writer. And I’d be thinking about the line, and I’d go, “Okay, I got it.” And I’d come up out of my meditative little pause, and they’d have moved on. They’d say, “Oh no, no, no. We got that. Now we’re over on this part of the song.” And I’m thinking, “This kind of writing’s not for me.” But a lot of the songs that are collaborations aren’t really that kind of collaboration—
http://www.thenation.com/article/181...ackson-browne#
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Excellent find, UTW!!!!!! Interesting reading.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
UndertheWire
That is really interesting! It also explains why they didn't write more with Jackson Browne.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
UndertheWire
My impression is that both Doolin-Dalton and James Dean were started before Henley joined the Souther-Browne-Frey writing team, so he may have just helped with the polishing.
From Headliners:
"Jackson and JD Souther and I [...] wrote the song 'Doolin-Dalton' one night [in 1970], kicked it around, and never got much done on it [...]. Henley helped the three of us finish it up. [...] We all took a hand in [the lyrics]."
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
From the banner, I guess it must be time to wish One Of These Nights a happy 41st birthday.
Gary Burden talks about the album cover.
http://garyburdenforrtwerk.com/2009/...-these-nights/
I believe that Glenn bought the sculpture.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy 43rd Birthday to One of These Nights.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UndertheWire
I know that Glenn got the artifact? that is on the cover of "The Very Best Of". Supposedly he bought it at a yard sale. The is a picture of him in his Aspen studio with it hanging on the wall behind him. In the photos in the real estate listing of his Aspen property you can see it hanging over a doorway. I'm going out so I don't have the time to search for the studio picture or the link to the listing (if it's still there), but I'll look later if nobody finds it before I have time.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
This album marks the point where the Eagles became hit machines.
Happy birthday One of These Nights!
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy Birthday to "One of these Nights"!!! :D So many of their hits where on this, especially my favorite "Take it to the Limit"!!!
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy birthday to One of These Nights! Take It To the Limit is the first song I remember hearing over and over again on AM radio. It got me hooked.
You find the most interesting articles, UtW. Thanks for posting the link to Gary's web page.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy Birthday, One of These Nights!
Awesomeness!
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Awesome album. Title track. TITTL. JotS. So many great tracks.
I remember a friend at school who decided he liked doing the school shows. In the shows he sort of sang in the show 'character voice'. But, we were driving out in the local mountain range and the song came on the car radio. He sang along with it and, some years after he first got involved in the show, that's when I realised that he could really sing. The falsetto bits at the end and all.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy 41st anniversary to One of These Nights!
Such a unique album in that all of them got a chance to sing lead. That didn't happen again until a few decades later with the release of Long Road Out of Eden.
Anyway, if the stars align just right, maybe Don will sing the title track on the tour. Would love to hear him hit those high notes, because I haven't heard it live since HFO. 🙏🏻
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy (late) anniversary to One of These Nights.
It's either my second or third favorite Eagles album. (The list changes from time to time). I love almost all of the songs on it except I Wish You Peace (I only like it.) and After The Thrill Is Gone. (I know that I'm I'm the minority on this.)
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
NOLA
Happy 41st anniversary to One of These Nights!
Such a unique album in that all of them got a chance to sing lead. That didn't happen again until a few decades later with the release of Long Road Out of Eden.
The unique albums are Hotel California and The Long Run. Until Felder's lead vocal was replaced for Victim Of Love and probably Those Shoes too. Everybody in the band had, at least, one lead vocal. Felder certainly expecting it, it may even have been part of the agreement when he initially joined the band.
The instrumental, Journey Of The Sorcerer is the new ground that appeals most to me. They've done instrumentals before and since but always tied in with other songs. Could've done without the Banjo tho :bye:
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy 41st anniversary to One Of These Nights!
Although I recently ranked it last in the Favourite Studio Albums thread, I still really like this album! The three hits are all great songs, as is ATTIG, and I also really like Too Many Hands and Journey Of The Sorcerer, both of which I find to be interesting and unique additions to the Eagles canon. My overall favourite would have to be the title track - absolutely love the blend of the high vocals with the distorted guitars, as I've said before a perfect fusion of harder and softer rock. It's also probably the single most important album in me becoming an Eagles fan as it was the second album I heard after Hotel California (they were the two Eagles albums in my parents' collection) and this led on to me exploring the other albums.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
HAPPY 41ST ANNIVERSARY TO ONE OF THESE NIGHTS!!!
As Soda said, this is the album that really propelled the Eagles into super stardom and garnered the band their first Grammy. I absolutely love the 'big three' hits, and ATTIG. It is unique in that it is the only album that contains a lead by 5 different vocalist. In all the stuff that I've ever read, seen, or heard about the band, I have never heard any indication that there was anything in any members contract regarding lead vocals.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy 42nd Birthday to One of These Nights.
I like majority of the songs on this album expect 3.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy 42 Anniversary to OOTN - It is my second favorite album. The only songs I don't care for are I Wish You Peace and Visions. Otherwise love all the other songs.
Soda - I love the new background.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
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Originally Posted by
New Kid In Town
Happy 42 Anniversary to OOTN - It is my second favorite album. The only songs I don't care for are I Wish You Peace and Visions. Otherwise love all the other songs.
Soda - I love the new background.
Those songs and Journey of the Sorcerer I don't like.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
A great album to listen to still. IMO the problem - if there even is one - with the Eagles discography is that at some point people (including the band members) started to think of their output as this "perfect songbook" and the songs that had the widest appeal (and were the most catchy) were accepted in this "perfect songbook". And the songs that didn't make the "perfect songbook" are seen by many as fillers. Even Glenn called the albums - including OOTN - "two or three songs deep". But if we forget the "catchy/mass appeal" criteria, there's a lot more to discover. A song is not bad even if it doesn't have the same mass appeal. I think OOTN contains songs that are great, but not great in the "mass appeal" way - songs like TMH and JOTS. "Bitter creek" from Desperado is an amazing piece of work (and in my experience more easily loved by people who hate the band) even though it could never be in the "perfect songbook".
EDIT:
In other words...People don't judge Bowie's "Life on Mars" with the same criteria as "Breaking glass". Sometimes it seems to me that all Eagles songs should be great with the same criteria. :(
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Chaim - I always loved "Bitter Creek" too !
Also agree about the "mass appeal" too.
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Re: Celebration of "One of These Nights"!
Happy 42nd anniversary to the One Of These Nights album! My personal favourite song is the title track, although I think ATTIG runs it close.
I tend to think of this album as being a bit like Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy in that offers a wide variety of musical styles - every song has a unique feel. The R&B influences, most prominently displayed on the title song, give it a different flavour from the earlier albums, but Bernie's presence in particular mean there is still some country rock, which also differentiates it from the two records that followed, particularly The Long Run. In a similar vein, while Glenn is less prominent vocally than he had been previously, unlike HC or TLR Don H was not yet the band's 'main' vocalist either. In this respect, it's also interesting that Bernie and Don F each play lead guitar (or equivalent) on roughly half of the songs on the album - the former on HW, Lyin' Eyes and IWYP (plus the banjo on JOTS) and the latter on the title track, TMH, Visions, ATTIG and I think TITTL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chaim
A great album to listen to still. IMO the problem - if there even is one - with the Eagles discography is that at some point people (including the band members) started to think of their output as this "perfect songbook" and the songs that had the widest appeal (and were the most catchy) were accepted in this "perfect songbook". And the songs that didn't make the "perfect songbook" are seen by many as fillers. Even Glenn called the albums - including OOTN - "two or three songs deep". But if we forget the "catchy/mass appeal" criteria, there's a lot more to discover. A song is not bad even if it doesn't have the same mass appeal. I think OOTN contains songs that are great, but not great in the "mass appeal" way - songs like TMH and JOTS. "Bitter creek" from Desperado is an amazing piece of work (and in my experience more easily loved by people who hate the band) even though it could never be in the "perfect songbook".
I think this is absolutely spot on. I think I've had thoughts along these lines for some time, but you've put it into words perfectly. I agree that a lot of excellent deeper tracks are overlooked because of this, particularly on the Desperado album, but it also applies to OOTN. Journey of the Sorcerer, for example, is a highly unique song, not just in the Eagles canon, but by anyone in the rock world. I really like it, even though it's not a catchy radio song (I must say that in my experience, JOTS seems to be the most popular among people who otherwise hate or at least dislike the Eagles).
I think to some extent this has been reinforced by the band's post-1994 setlists, which have predominantly consisted of the 'perfect songbook'. In some ways this is a nice problem to have - in a 3 hour show which includes all (or almost all) of the band's big hits, once you include solo hits from Don, Glenn and Joe there is not much room left for other songs. And there are songs which were sung by Randy or Bernie which have not been played live since they left the band and which usually do not make it onto the compilation albums, TITTL excepted, so the casual fans who only bought the greatest hits CDs would know very few of their songs. Ultimately, I can only summarise by saying that I don't agree with anyone who says that the Eagles albums have only 2-3 good/great songs - there's at least five tracks on every album that I really like.